Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Snippets on Kp

Just been doing some reading and among lots of other stuff came across these among the mouse-traps...

Kp is associated with distended abdomen Still got strong images of Biafra in my head and many more African famines since. Now i have images of peritoneal injections into bloated mice. YUK!

Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) enhances immunity against Kp... Seems to stimulate phagocytes and other cells, activates B6. Grain is a big source so NSD makes it harder. Red meat is a good source so vego makes it harder still, but leafy greens are the way to go - as well as B complex pills...

Certain molecules (glycoproteins) from Kp enhance immunological killing of Candida (albacans). This is no surprise as Kp wants to reduce competetion for its niche - remember the fungus/mould that makes penecillin to kill off bacterial competition. However, it means candidiasis should not be as prominent in starch eaters and NSDers slightly more suspect to it...
Once again candida can be the consequence of a condition and not necessarily the cause. Riboflavin also takes away some conditions like dandruff that can sometimes indicate candida susceptibility.

Ted

I've got Crohn’s disease...
...and he's got mine...
Spike Milligan

If B2 stimulates phagocytes, is this necessarily a good thing for us? Doesn't this mean that in the presence of Kp, B2 will cause even more inflammation? Or does a different type of white blood cell cause the inflammation? I generally do not feel great when taking B complex vitamins. I look at the labels for typical B complex pills and often a single pill will over 1000% RDA for all of them. Is there a reason for having so much? Generally I feel a little wired on them, my body feels warmer, my head feels thick, my pee turns orange, and sometimes I feel like I have a little inflammation. It just doesn't feel normal. I'm willing to be convinced that this is OK. Does anyone do well on a lot of B vitamins?

-Don

Thanks Don, all in the nature of nomenclature i suppose - WBC are phagocytes. I take phagocyte to include the cells which engulf and destroy invading bacteria per se - monocytes or macrophage via phaogocytisis so i may be being generous to Vit B2. Certain WBC carry the antibody actions which attack our surface cells - specific protein binding actions in the IgG pathways.
I believe we have less problem with the generic immune system as most of our problems should come from the specific reaction against Kp misdirected to one superficial protein. I'll need information which differentiates further... it always gets more complex, not simpler.
Much of our high WBC in a flare may be a general alert because the Ig paths have been activated by presence of Kp pullulanase. Of course it's always more complex than that, but i think Riboflavin as a stimulant is a positive if it is generic and not selective.
My opinion is that effective adoption of NSD and substantial Kp reduction WITH a continual daily regimen that keeps gram negatives low WHILE competing against them with lots of lactobaccilus and bifida enables me to actively support and enhance the general, non-specific immune system without negative effect. I have no problem with Vit C and Zinc and don't notice any bad effect with echinacea.
Many benefits of suppressing Kp and NOT going the TNFa and immune-suppressing drugs.
The first generic defence system is the gut and its ability to replace the mucous and old epithelial cells at a fast rate and wash away the bugs - so we could even call l-glutamine a critical immune system stimulant. Anything that seeks out all invading bacteria must be the second line. Often makes me wonder if anyone reacts to acidopholus or bifidus...
I think we (as B27 positives) can effectively concentrate on the individual immune aspects that work with us if we suppress Kp specifically via diet so the goal for me is to find immune stimulants which do not increase the autoantibody activity.

Ted

I've got Crohn’s disease...
...and he's got mine...
Spike Milligan

Welcome, Don:

Generally, keeping the immune system depressed would not be the best approach in dealing with AS. It would be difficult to avoid certain foods high in certain vitB components, even if we were aware of which ones these are.

AS was almost certainly initiated by a compromised immune system: Not enough scavengers in the peripheral immune system to pick off the Kp early enough to avoid the secondary immune reaction.

Once that reaction happens, and cells are primed for killing, then even eating arachidonic acid precursors can make inflammation worse. I suppose taking extra Bvits might also increase the wrong part of the immune system--at the wrong time, and this could lead to more AS action.

I have not had the experience you have with larger dosages, and recommend these supplements so that, under optimal conditions, healing can proceed quicker. It is something to take under consideration, perhaps, in the early days of the NSD.

Health, to You,
John



"You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something."
R.P. Feynman,

Don welcome,
Like you I don't do well on vitamine supplements with a high VitB content. For myself I figured out speculatively that it has to do with the fact that most of them are rather crudely derived from yeasts. I had another supplement for chrome with the same yeast taste that gave me the same problems. Maybe the dead yeast is able to trigger our immune system or maybe it feeds the candida or even the bugs (Kp) itself, who knows. Anyway when I changed to more highly processed multivitamins the problems stopped. I am interested if your B vitamins had a high yeast content too.
Gerard
About the immune system. It is indeed complex but I would suggest that if phagocytosis of Kp is raised by the neutrophils this looks good however lagging some hours after the neutrophils come the macrophages, these are the APC's or antigen presenting cells which show parts of their just eaten Kp on their surface and which trigger the T cells (cd4+ cd8+) and with this trio we have the major problemsources for AS into action.

"Tell me what kind of food you eat, and I will tell you what kind of man you are."
-Anthelme Brillat Savarin -

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the responses. I suppose its possible that something about the yeast in B vitamins is causing me to feel wierd. Do you know if they can manufacture B vitamins without using yeast? Looking at a typical Nature Made bottle that I have, it seem they go over 6000% with B1, 1000% with B2, and low triple digits for the rest of the B vitamins. So I think I misspoke when I said that they were all over 1000%. Still that 6000% of B1 seems out of whack.
I have not really experimented with B vitamins since being on NSD. In the past, I've had more inflammation, and eating B complex always seemed to make it worse. My joints would always feel best when I had a cold or didn't eat a whole lot. However, now that I'm doing better it may be time to do more things to boost the immune system. Since Ted has mentioned B2 as helping the immune system, perhaps I should concentrate on experimenting with just that B vitamin?

Cheers,
Don

>> Maybe the dead yeast is able to trigger our immune system or maybe it feeds
>> the candida

I agree. I also seem to react to foods containing yeast or those derived from yeast. eg: alcohol, vinegar, bread, perhaps cheese, and also perhaps some supplements.

Maybe the yeast foods are only a problem for those with candida problems? perhaps not.. somthing to think about.

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy