Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives Alternatives Bacterial selection

hi tinynic, great to hear you are doing so well :-)

I use bromelain myself, as does my father. It works great, but it is a bit different to most medications due to the fact that it is an enzyme. The most important thing is to buy a product that is very fresh .. so look around and find a product that has the expiry date set as far in the future as possible. I managed to find a product with an expiry 18 months from now, and this one works brilliantly despite only containing 50mg of bromelain. Conversely some really old products will not work even if you take 1000mg of the product... this is because enzymes degrade with time and cease to function.

My father takes the bromelain with roughly 500mg quercetin and 50mg rutin. He says that it is continuing to work well for him. Perhaps the quercetin helps?, I dont know.

PM me if you want more info !

regards,
z


"Unmarried men commit ninety percent of all violent acts. They should all be jailed in advance to prevent further atrocities." -- Dogbert

FOS is used as food by 'good' bowel bacteria and some 'bad' bacteria as well; they colonise by using it as food. FOS is a group of long-chain sugars, averaging 3.7 molecules in length.

The research shows that very few of the incorrect bacteria can utilize the longer-chain sugars, but the good bacteria bifidobacteria and lactobacilli can use use them and fluorish. The longer chain sugars, averaging 9-22 molecules in length, are called inulin.
from: http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/probiotic_disinformation.html

Well I learnt something new - FOS is not quite the same as Inulin. A lot of people have been confusing the two (including myself). I tried two different inulin sources recently
* roasted chicory root tea: some foot pain, but the rest of me was fine (i think?), I will double check this later.
* onions: this caused some stiffness in back and neck. I was pain free at mid day, and the inflammation started within roughly 2 or 3 hours. NB: pureed onions are used to thicken indian sauces.

more info on Inulin and FOS:
* Avoiding bowel dysbiosis with Inulin
Excellent info and graphs. Including graphs of which bacteria can ferment various carbohydrates.
Great information here. Awesome set of links at the bottom of the page.
http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

* Inulin- A Comprehensive Scientific Review ****
Excellent info and graphs. Very comprehensive information. Very long and detailed info here, and it is targeted more for the scientists.
http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

"Thy food shall be thy remedy." - Hippocrates, 500 BC

Zark,
Thank you very much for this post. I have visited the 3 URLs you cited, and printed them. The second URL reference was expecially helpful (the inulin_prebiotic_probiotic URL). I have approached my Pm overgrowth from the viewpoint of Pm's food sources. The table in the second reference that shows utilization of complex carbohydrates by intestinal bacteria, clearly shows that Pm can not use branched starches (amylopectin). I have suspected as much, when I found literature showing that Pm is barely able to use disaccharides, and prefers to use organic acids as a carbon source (via the Kreb's Cycle).

I noticed that these references indicate, very clearly, that Bifidobacterium bifidum does not increase its growth with inulin. I take B. bifidum, at 20-40 billion CFU per day (Natren's Healthy Trinity). I have noticed that the beneficial effects of taking bifidum do not last more than a few days after stopping the probiotic supplement. I think this indicates that bifidum does not establish colonies in my gut, but just moves through with food / feces. I am on a diet, the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD), which is less strict than the NSD about starches, but more strict about lactose and sucrose (disaccharides). I think the SCD prevents the bifidum from establishing permanent gut colonies. And it appears that inulin supplementation will not help with this situation.

Yes, I have been on the wrong diet for 3 years, and only just (in the last year), figured that out. So, I am trying to gradually transition to a gluten-free, dairy-free, vegetarian diet.

I am currently testing the idea of taking a starchy bean, garbanzo beans, as hummus, with my evening bifidum supplement. Beans contain a non-digestible oligosaccharide (NDO), called galacto-oligosaccharide (GOS), in addition to starch. The results have, so far, been good. (I do not have the genetics for AS or, very fortunately for me, RA.) I have tried less starchy beans, including navy, kidney, and black beans, and not gotten this effect. These beans probably also contain GOS. So, I am somewhat confused by what is going on with bifidum and the hummus. It may be that the garbanzos must have more GOS in them, than the other beans. I should add that Natren's Healthy Trinity is cultured on garbanzo beans, meaning that the 3 bacteria in the supplement, L. acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, and B. bifidum, grow well on this. So it was a good bet for me to try this.

I realize that most beans are definitely off the NSD allowable food list, because of their starch content. So, can people on the NSD use bifidum, if inulin is not effective? I suppose you guys could take GOS supplements with bifidum, but maybe some of the other Bifidobacterium (breve and infantis) would be a better idea.

Pardon my rambling--I am still in the process of thinking through this whole prebiotic/probiotic situation.

I do think that it would be a good idea for me to post my opinion, that Pm overgrowth and RA should be treated with a gluten-free, dairy-free, vegetarian diet, not the LSD/NSD. I came to this conclusion by observing my own personal experience with Pm overgrowth, and reading papers on treatment of RA with diet. Especially this paper: "Rheumatoid arthritis: proposal for the use of anti-microbial therapy in early cases", A. Ebringer, T. Rashid, and C. Wilson, Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology, 2003, 32:2-11. This paper summarizes previous research on RA and diets, and recommends a vegetarian or vegan diet, among other treatments. I know some of the people posting on this site, have suggested that RA and PM be treated with the LSD/NSD. I am pretty sure that this is wrong. Pardon my bluntness.
Jan

Well, I've been using the salt water for quite a while now and I just had x-rays and a MRI done on my spine. It seems I have the spine of a healthy person! I still have arthritis in my neck and shoulders, but the back has cleared up. I am walking without a cane because my foot is much better too. Is it the salt water? I don't know for sure, but I do know I didn't start feeling better until I started drinking the salt water. If someone were to ask me if I would recommend them trying it, I would have to say definately. Thank you to Lamonty for posting this. I am also going to try a couple of others in conjunction with the salt water to see if i can become completely cleared.

I have been taking fish oils and cod liver oil along with the salt water for the past six weeks and I cannot believe the difference. I have not felt this good for a long time. Even my hips are most days pain free. I've even played a couple of games of hockey! I really hope this will help everyone. I am prescribed 2 celebrex per day, but I only take one. I want to get to the point I do not need to take any prescription drugs for AS at all. I am also in the process of returning to full time work. I had read earlier that sometimes AS will go into remission on its own, maybe that is what is happening and this is all a coincidence. If that is the case it is a huge coincidence. All I know is I am feeling much better for the time being. It doesn't hurt to try.

Hiya Monty.

the sauerkraut is something I've noticed helps, being a bit starchey not sure if it is a break down in the starch or what?

The water you cook/heat it in is used by our european friends as a hangover cure.....it works a friend of mine form those part of the woods got his prune fire water out and it was a killer next morning he fixed me....I was amazed.

Miso is something else, but just miso is n't as good, I'm currently working on that now, I think I've found out why.......!

Also Salt drinks force fluid back into the bowel i think it is an osmosis thingy..

David

I was looking for a thread on pro-biotics and came across this one --lots of interesting info on salt water, certainly worth a try.

I was also thinking of adding a glass of sauerkraut juice into my daily regime. I have U.C. (ulcerative colitis) as well as A.S. and a naturopath has recommended sauerkraut juice for U.C. before. Would the juice be as effective (maybe more?) I don't think I could eat sauerkraut (thought makes me nauseous) yet I have enjoyed the juice in the past.

The question I am searching for an answer remains unanswered. What is the best type of good bacteria pro-biotic to take for A.S. Acidophilus? Bifidus?

I have recently tried the Acidopholus as a kind of test. The initial reaction was a really bad stomach for maybe 3-4 days which I assume is my system getting used to the new bacteria. Then all settled down and things have been normal. I suffer from IBS, primarily as a by product of anxiety attacks - in this respect the pro-biotics have given no measurable improvement.
I have recently adopted the no starch diet, and that seems to have had a greater positive effect on my digestive system than the pro-biotic.
So though I am still taking Acidophulus really the jury is still out. I will discontinue when the bottle is empty and see what transpires.
hope this helps....