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Posted By: la_monty Bacterial selection - 04/01/03 03:05 AM
This is re probiotics, but not easy to find a suitable thread.
I take sauerkraut every morning as a source of "good" bacteria after trying to starve and maim the "bad" ones in my nightly regime with olive oil and some anti-fungal/sceptic.
Salt is commonly used in sauerkraut to select the lactobacillus and friendly yeast species on the cabbage leaves and to kill or suppress the coliforms. It must be non-iodized or it will kill everything and the cabbage will not ferment properly.

Only recently i remembered that i used to fast with a salt water flush in the early and later stages of the fast. I am now drawing the connection that a hit of salt water (non-iodized) in isolation may be helpfull in selecting out some of the bacteria and yeasts that we do not want. How we actually ensure it travels down the gut is another matter! Possibily enteric coated salt tablets...........
I cannot believe i am saying this, but salt does have a purpose and was not just designed to corrode my arteries and my boat.....................
Interesting that i stopped adding salt (enough in processed stuff) to my food about the same time as my early infections many years back.
Maybe salt was originally used as a medicinal sprinkling on food and not for taste!


Ted
proAS_KickAS
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 04/02/03 05:49 AM
I guess you could consider iodine a broad spectrum antibiotic ! I have had it placed on wounds several times when I was young.. All of them became nasty scars ! But all the skinned knees etc that did not get the iodine healed up perfectly.

Obviously not much can live in iodine.. maybe in trace amounts it makes life difficult for some friendly bacteria, and pushes the scales in favour of klebsiella p. , who knows. If using iodized salt is enough to ruin the friendly bacteria in sauerkraut then I think that is a bit of a worry !

Can you get salt that is not iodized? Wouldn't the levels of iodine in sea salt also be relatively high?

cheers to good kraut!,
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: la_monty Re: Bacterial selection - 04/02/03 09:01 AM
Iodine was originally added to salt as people were getting diseases caused by defficiency in Iodine. - presumably thyroid diseases.
Later on, (at least in Australia) iodine was surrepticiously slipped into the consumer market via milk - Iodine was incorporated into the detergent used by dairies to wash out the milking equipment. I cannot remember if you can still get those green iodised salt containers - i haven't bought salt for decades. There were always two products available though so there must be negligible in ordinary salt.

As far as Iodine goes your wounds may have been lucky. I still have vivid red memories of Mercurachrome on mine.

Back to bugs and guts, the salt water flush is of course similar effect to epsom salts, but more of a washout - an enema without any insertion.................
The test is - can one actually drink 1.5 litres of salted water!
I haven't done the numbers, but i think sea water would need dilution.
How many grams of salt fit on a teaspoon?


Ted
proAS_KickAS
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 05/10/03 11:24 AM
Well, your post on salt has been kicking around my head for a while. And the more I think about it the more sense it made. I know that pickled / fermented vegetables require salt / sugar / vinegar to be added in order to prevent deadly bacterium from growing..

And since a lot of food is actually fermenting in our guts, it makes sense that adding salt back into the diet would encourage good bacteria to flourish.. by killing of the unfriendly bacteria.

I saw this by accident today, I was pretty surprised !
In reply to:

The Mayo Clinic had pronounced Lloyd Palmer, of Minnesota, as incurable. Since 1965 he had suffered from excruciatingly painful arthritis of his spinal column -- ankylosing spondylitis. His spine twisted and lost movement until, he says, he became a "walking comma." He suffered pain for 31 years, until he started to drink water and take salt. He writes: "I continue to be pain-free with my ankylosis spondylitis one year after starting the water/salt regime. My blood pressure is normal as well. I thank God every day for allowing me to finally be pain-free."
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/overview.htm



"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 05/10/03 12:21 PM
Here are some more odd quotes from http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm

"In countries which do not alter their salt supply, heart disease and arthritis are so rare that many doctors have never seen a case. Their salt is dried from the ocean by the sun."
...
"REAL SALT can dissolve damaging calcium deposits in the body ."
...
"An eight-year study of a New York City hypertensive population stratified for sodium intake levels found those on low-salt diets had more than four times as many heart attacks as those on normal-sodium diets – the exact opposite of what the “salt hypothesis” would have predicted. (1995) "
Dr. Jeffrey R. Cutler documented no health outcomes benefits of lower-sodium diets. (Salt Institute)



"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 05/10/03 12:37 PM
I wouldn't call myself a christian, but if the good man himself tells me salt is good, then who am I to disagree . Here is a quote from Mark:

Mark 9:50: Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. (King James Bible)


Gosh, I do find odd sources for info don't I !

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: la_monty Re: Bacterial selection - 05/10/03 01:50 PM
Good one zark, i've come across all sorts of interesting stuff before on shirley's cafe.
Hope to find more on the salt sometime, but meanwhile i'm happy to eat salted sauerkraut.

Ted
"Auto-immunity or self-help - no decision"
Posted By: Tink Re: Bacterial selection - 05/11/03 01:45 AM
What do you eat the sauerkraut on? Just wondering what your cooking. I need a new friendly food to move on to.

Allan

Posted By: la_monty Breakfast rave... - 05/11/03 12:33 PM
Allan i'll describe my typical breakfast, varied to uncooked at times from time restraints.
I buy frozen smoked-cod (fillets) as it is individually wrapped, thaws in minutes. If i ate fresh fish, i'd have to buy it every day (or catch it), so i only buy one meal of some fresh fish when i buy the cod. I take it from freezer, leave it in fridge overnite.
I poach it in coconut oil very slowly, with a lid, while i do my exercises.
Halfway thru i cover it with cabbage (or some other green) and sliced ginger.
This steams above the fish, still a little crunchy when i eat it.
I take some fish oil and supplements, and have a side plate of baby beetroot with one imperial dollop of sauerkraut. Beetroot for vitamins, energy, anti-cancer one of the best food/medecines in existence and the sauerkraut to replenish lactobacillus spp as i have probably taken something to kill bugs while i sleep - olive oil and an antibacterial last thing at night.
Otherwise i saute (in OO) then slowly steam chicken or turkey with basically the same. There are no scraps or leftovers - bones go into freezer for soup.
Or i make fritatas with similar ingredients, add sauerkraut and a tomato "pasta-type" sauce. Often i will cook double quantity - to take my lunch or leave for tea.
Once a week (because it takes that long to make it) i also have a glass of kefir (dairy at present).
It may not sound divine, but i love breakfast, it is my main meal of the day. It's now much more appealing than 3 weet-bix with sliced banana and soya-milk.
I have no cultural experience of sauerkraut so am not sure how and how much it is used traditionally, but presume as a side to meat, probably pork.
Mornings, i've been rising at 4 or 5 to spend 2 hours or so working on my boat before breakfast so a cooked meal is great after that. Now winter is so close, i'm not sure how i'll feel about the cooking, but so far so good. I do live the dictum "Breakfast like a King, dine like a Prince, sup like a pauper", but will still dine out - evening meals with friends and at restaurants so those days probably eat a lighter lunch.
bon appetit

Ted
"Auto-immunity or self-help - no decision"
Posted By: zark Re: Breakfast rave... - 05/19/03 03:11 AM
Ted,
Just thought I would let you know that I am doing pretty well on the salt and water regime. I would reckon that my pain level has reduced about 50%.. Will give it more time to see if it is just a coincidence..

Also, before I started with this I had two big ulcers in my mouth .. and lots of little ones. Not to mention I was getting fevers and stomach cramps. So I was getting more and more worried that I might be getting the initial symptoms of Crohn's Disease (scary disease that one..).

Well, my mouth ulcers disappeared quickly after starting on the salt and water. the cramps and fevers disappeared too (these fevers had been troubling me for about a month). I will keep you updated if any of this comes back.

At first the salt and water was just a little a bit rough on my mouth. It felt a little tender on the roof of my mouth. But I was amazed how quickly it toughened up. In just two or three days the lining of my mouth was tougher, and no longer bothered by the salt AND at the same time the ulcers were gone.

The salt seems to have actually stimulated my body to put more energy into healing the lining of my mouth, and make it more resilient.. and that would mean the same for my small intestine.

cheers,
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: zark Re: Breakfast rave... - 05/19/03 12:05 PM
some related links to check out...

testimonials:
http://proliberty.com/observer/20010720.htm

more testimonials:
http://www.watercure2.com/backprob.asp

this one discusses a salt water "isotonic flush" and garlic.. followed by pro-biotics
http://www.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/candida.html


"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: la_monty Re: Breakfast rave... - 05/20/03 03:44 AM
Good to hear. I also checked out the links in the your other post.
I've decided to use the occaisional salt water thing as a flush because i am pain-free at present - i even tested myself with rice and wheat flour products yesterday with no flare so am feeling quite robust.
I now have litle doubt that salt has a place in healing. Hope it continues for you.

Ted
"Auto-immunity or self-help - no decision"
Posted By: zark Re: Breakfast rave... - 05/20/03 09:45 AM
I was still feeling good yesterday until I thought I would try eating 2 meat pies for lunch.. that was a big mistake !!! Guess I was feeling invincible too :-) hehehe
Within a few hours I parts of my ribs and shoulder blades getting sore. AMAZING how quick the reaction is.

By the way, the reaction is not nearly as obvious if you are on NSAID's.. not recommending NSAID's to anyone though, they do far more harm to me than good ! (I react badly to NSAID's)

When I looked at the ingredients the pie had things like: wheat flour, milk powder, thickener etc. all bad news, particularly the milk powder !! .. I react BADLY to milk power, for whatever reason. I get lots of pain, iritis, and my stomach feels a bit off. Probably due to malformed proteins.

So for dinner I ate all the things I know are OK for me.. meat (fish), eggs, carrots, pumpkin and rice. No legumes of any kind - they are out of the question...

I was worried that I wouldn't be able to sleep. As that is a BIG problem when I go into flair mode .. if I lay on my back my back kills... and if I lay on my side my shoulder and ribs go crazy. But I slept really really well ! I had done some stretches before sleeping.. but I was still surprised at how well I slept regardless.

Mind you, this morning I had a sore finger. And I did feel a single tiny stabbing pain in my tummy this morning (?!). Well I knew what to blame for all that ! still that finger pain went away a few hours after taking some Rutin..

feelin pretty good again now :-) think I will have totally bounced back by tomorrow
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 06/03/03 12:28 PM
BTW, always use Unrefined Sea Salt if you can. No sane need to swallow the chemical additives they put in refined table salt - ie: "Anti-Caking Agents"

More odd info, to be taken lightly here : ..

====================

1. Salt is most effective in stabilizing irregular heartbeats and, Contrary to the misconception that it causes high blood pressure, it is actually essential for the regulation of blood pressure - in conjunction with water. Naturally the proportions are critical.

2. Salt is vital to the extraction of excess acidity from the cells in the body, particularly the brain cells.

3. Salt is vital for balancing the sugar levels in the blood; a needed element in diabetics.

4. Salt is vital for the generation of hydroelectric energy in cells in the body. It is used for local power generation at the sites of energy need by the cells.

5. Salt is vital to the nerve cells' communication and information processing all the time that the brain cells work, from the moment of conception to death.

6. Salt is vital for absorption of food particles through the intestinal tract.

7. Salt is vital for the clearance of the lungs of mucus plugs and sticky phlegm, particularly in asthma and cystic fibrosis.

8. Salt is vital for clearing up catarrh and congestion of the sinuses.

9. Salt is a strong natural antihistamine.

10. Salt is essential for the prevention of muscle cramps.

11. Salt is vital to prevent excess saliva production to the point that it flows out of the mouth during sleep. Needing to constantly mop up excess saliva indicates salt shortage.

12. Salt is absolutely vital to making the structure of bones firm. Osteoporosis, in a major way, is a result of salt and water shortage in the body.

13. Salt is vital for sleep regulation. It is a natural hypnotic.

14. Salt is a vitally needed element in the treatment of diabetics.

15. Salt on the tongue will stop persistent dry coughs.

16. Salt is vital for the prevention of gout and gouty arthritis.

17. Salt is vital for maintaining sexuality and libido.

18. Salt is vital for preventing varicose veins and spider veins on the legs and thighs.

19. Salt is vital to the communication and information processing nerve cells the entire time that the brain cells work - from the moment of conception to death.

20. Salt is vital for reducing a double chin. When the body is short of salt, it means the body really is short of water. The salivary glands sense the salt shortage and are obliged to produce more saliva to lubricate the act of chewing and swallowing and also to supply the stomach with water that it needs for breaking down foods. Circulation to the salivary glands increases and the blood vessels become "leaky" in order to supply the glands with water to manufacture saliva. The "leakiness" spills beyond the area of the glands themselves, causing increased bulk under the skin of the chin, the cheeks and into the neck.

21. Sea salt contains about 80 mineral elements that the body needs. Some of these elements are needed in trace amounts. Unrefined sea salt is a better choice of salt than other types of salt on the market. Ordinary table salt that is bought in the super markets has been stripped of its companion elements and contains additive elements such as aluminum silicate to keep it powdery and porous. Aluminum is a very toxic element in our nervous system. It is implicated as one of the primary causes of Alzheimer's disease.

22. Twenty-seven percent of the body's salt is in the bones. Osteoporosis results when the body needs more salt and takes it from the body. Bones are twenty-two percent water. Is it not obvious what happens to the bones when we're deficient in salt or water or both.
http://www.curezone.com/foods/saltpage.asp

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: Inanna Re: Bacterial selection - 06/06/03 08:19 PM
OK, I gotta get this straight. You actually drink salt water! Blech!!

Sorry for that reaction, but I've tasted the ocean. EUW!! Of course, if it helps, then who'm I to balk.

I've printed off the info from one of the sites posted. Thanks.

Hugs,

Kat

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 06/08/03 06:59 AM
Have to agree that sea water tastes pretty bad :-) but I only use a about a third of a tea spoon in a litre of water.. which to me, tastes about as bad as normal tap water anyway !

I honestly don't know whether it works or not.. I find it hard to do the whole water flush every day.. all that running to the toilet gets tedious. But if it works for that other guy whoo had spondylitis, then I am keen to give it a shot!

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: Inanna Re: Bacterial selection - 06/09/03 06:27 PM
I printed off a bunch of stuff on it on Friday and am going to look into it further. One taste of the Atlantic Ocean is all I needed to keep me from jumping into these waters without looking for more info. So far, it looks interesting enough that I'm going to try to find raw sea salt to cook with. I already use sea salt. The package says that it's bleached by being left in the sun. Gotta check into that.

Hugs,

Kat

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 06/10/03 06:13 AM
To be honest, when I read through the last quote about salt.. I think he is referring to "salt" in a very general sense - more than just plain NaCl .. eg: salts of magnesium, zinc, selennium, and other trace minerals found in unrefined sea salt. (?)

Here are several ways I can think of that this "salt flush" could work:
* kill off undesirable microbes - bacterial selection..
* challenge and strengthen the lining of the gut. Similar mechanism to how fibre strengthens the gut lining, also similar to how brushing your gums strengthens them.
* flush out accumulated junk from the blood. eg: circulating immune complexes, prostaglandins and other accumulated hormones / metabolic wastes..
* stabilise the mineral balances in the blood. From what I have read the mineral levels in AS sufferers are quite off balance
* provide those trace minerals and rare earths that are required for good health in the most minute amounts.

cheers,
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: Inanna Re: Bacterial selection - 06/10/03 04:14 PM
Thanks. Yup, I'm definitely looking into it. I'm pretty sure my S.O. thinks I'm going nuts, tho. I keep printing off all this info about the 'latest craze' if you'll excuse the expression and then giving him indepth lectures on all I'm learning!

Hugs,

Kat

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 06/11/03 04:02 AM
I know hopw you feel ! I wouldn't tell friends the kinds of things I would experiment with to ease my pain !!! What would they think if I told I was taking a supplement that contained pigs pancreas ?? (Which worked incredibly well at first btw) .. They would think I was nuts.

Fact is I would have react the same as them.. yup im "out there" ..

Thing is I have no choice. Standard treatments don't work for me, and immune suppressors are the VERY LAST thing I will try. Which leaves me with no alternative but to go outside of the mainstream orthodoxy ..

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: Inanna Re: Bacterial selection - 06/12/03 04:39 PM
Yeah, I feel the same way. But I have to admit that if they ever found an immune suppressor that allowed your immune system to rebuild itself and work properly, I'd be in like Flynn to be on the trial for it!! They were experimenting with something like that for RA at Oxford a few years back.

Hugs,

Kat

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 06/17/03 08:34 AM
Kat
yep, they hoped to do exactly that with "Mabthera". The idea with Mabthera being: wipe out the immune systems "B cells" and start again. Their theory is that a "trigger event" has taught the immune system B cells to see your own body as foreign. It didn't work quite as planned.. eventually the arthritis returned. Still it must have been quite effective, as they only needed to be treated about once a year.

Personally, I think its failure to permanantly wipe out an autoimmune disease gives evidence that the disease "trigger" is still there. Whether that trigger be a metabolic problem, an infection, or an allergy.

The reason I mention allergy.. Well my main reason is that people with celiacs disease who continue to eat wheat tend to develop arthritis... Why?

regards,
z

Mabthera :
https://www.kickas.org/cgi-bin/w3t/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=starch&Number=101686

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 02/22/04 06:41 AM
since I have been getting so terribly dehydrated at night I decided I should have a bottle of the usual sports type sugar/electrolyte drink. ie: salt with some fruit juice or honey. Then I realised that I just had to add some apple cider vinegar and I would be drinking pickle water . And I figure I might as well try that : rehydrate myself, and do some "bacterial selection" at the same time. I think you could justify calling it a probiotic since pickling feeds the good bacteria and knocks out the bad ones.

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 03/11/04 09:02 PM
I'm going to give it a try. I used to drink about two glasses of water a day, on a good day. I read that you are supposed to take your weight and divide by two, and that would be the number of ounces you're supposed to drink in a day. That puts me at 90 ounces. I wasn't even close to drinking enough. Let's hope it works.

No one said life would be easy, just worth it.
Posted By: earthwoman Re: Bacterial selection - 03/12/04 08:54 PM
Hi Angus!

In reply to:

I read that you are supposed to take your weight and divide by two, and that would be the number of ounces you're supposed to drink in a day.


Cool! I never knew this, but if it's true I'm doing pretty well, I am always drinking water, all day long, never without my sports bottle!



"The most beautiful stones have been tossed by the wind and washed by the waters and polished to brilliance by life's strongest storms."

Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 03/13/04 07:01 AM
(..zark does metric conversion in head..).. err that sounds about right :-)
must be about 40 ounces in a litre right?

... actually im not a big fan of vinegar.. so tell me how it goes ! I find that drinking a large amount of water on an empty belly (aka "water flush") relieves a huge amount of muscle tension that tends to build up in my back and shoulders.

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy
Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 03/13/04 07:15 PM
I'm trying the pure salt method. It seemed to make sense and by the third day I was getting used to the taste. I put 1 1/4 tsp. of the salt in an 80 oz. jug, that's almost 2 1/2 litres. I found a health store around my town that sells pure, unadulterated sea salt called Celtic Salt, or Celtic Sea Salt. I seem to have some improvement, although it's too early to get excited. I've been drinking this for almost a week now. It was strange, the first couple days it seemed the more I drank the thirstier I became. I would have thought it would have been the other way around. I thought it might help my stomach and oral ulcers as well. I'll keep you posted on my progress.

No one said life would be easy, just worth it.
Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 03/23/04 04:29 PM
Well, it's been two weeks and if this is any indication, things will continue to get better, I hope. I haven't had an oral ulcer since, (at least not yet), my stomach does not get as upset as much as it used to, if at all. My arthritis seems to be improving as I do not need my cane as much. I have still had a couple of days of flare up but I can deal with that. More updates to come. I hope that this works and that someone else can benefit from it as well.

No one said life would be easy, just worth it.
Posted By: KalamityK Re: Bacterial selection - 03/25/04 05:30 PM
This is so odd.... honestly before even seeing any of these post...yesterday,watching the movie "Almighty Bruce" the scene at Niagra Falls. A thought came about: Why did God make vast oceans of salt water, there must be a reason to this,that there is so much salt around?Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Definition of Calamity: an extraordinarily grave event marked by great loss and lasting distress and affliction. But! re-use some of the letters and I: Smite with calm!
Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 08/13/04 05:11 PM
It's been five months now that I have been drinking the sea salt/water mixture and I can still walk without a cane. Am I cured? No, but it is not nearly as painful as it was. My shoulders, on times, really bother me, my back still acts up once in a while, and there is still a little discomfort in my foot. But compared to the pain I was feeling I would say it has been a success. Now I am going out to get some bromelain. After seeing it mentioned in another post I did a little research on it and they say it is good for those with RA because of its anti-inflamitory properties. Maybe using both methods might help even more!

No one said life would be easy, just worth it.
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 08/17/04 05:13 AM
hi tinynic, great to hear you are doing so well :-)

I use bromelain myself, as does my father. It works great, but it is a bit different to most medications due to the fact that it is an enzyme. The most important thing is to buy a product that is very fresh .. so look around and find a product that has the expiry date set as far in the future as possible. I managed to find a product with an expiry 18 months from now, and this one works brilliantly despite only containing 50mg of bromelain. Conversely some really old products will not work even if you take 1000mg of the product... this is because enzymes degrade with time and cease to function.

My father takes the bromelain with roughly 500mg quercetin and 50mg rutin. He says that it is continuing to work well for him. Perhaps the quercetin helps?, I dont know.

PM me if you want more info !

regards,
z


"Unmarried men commit ninety percent of all violent acts. They should all be jailed in advance to prevent further atrocities." -- Dogbert
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 10/30/04 07:14 AM
FOS is used as food by 'good' bowel bacteria and some 'bad' bacteria as well; they colonise by using it as food. FOS is a group of long-chain sugars, averaging 3.7 molecules in length.

The research shows that very few of the incorrect bacteria can utilize the longer-chain sugars, but the good bacteria bifidobacteria and lactobacilli can use use them and fluorish. The longer chain sugars, averaging 9-22 molecules in length, are called inulin.

from: http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/probiotic_disinformation.html

Well I learnt something new - FOS is not quite the same as Inulin. A lot of people have been confusing the two (including myself). I tried two different inulin sources recently
* roasted chicory root tea: some foot pain, but the rest of me was fine (i think?), I will double check this later.
* onions: this caused some stiffness in back and neck. I was pain free at mid day, and the inflammation started within roughly 2 or 3 hours. NB: pureed onions are used to thicken indian sauces.

more info on Inulin and FOS:
* Avoiding bowel dysbiosis with Inulin
Excellent info and graphs. Including graphs of which bacteria can ferment various carbohydrates.
Great information here. Awesome set of links at the bottom of the page.
http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

* Inulin- A Comprehensive Scientific Review ****
Excellent info and graphs. Very comprehensive information. Very long and detailed info here, and it is targeted more for the scientists.
http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

"Thy food shall be thy remedy." - Hippocrates, 500 BC
Posted By: JanwoPmirabilis Re: Bacterial selection - 11/04/04 09:28 PM
Zark,
Thank you very much for this post. I have visited the 3 URLs you cited, and printed them. The second URL reference was expecially helpful (the inulin_prebiotic_probiotic URL). I have approached my Pm overgrowth from the viewpoint of Pm's food sources. The table in the second reference that shows utilization of complex carbohydrates by intestinal bacteria, clearly shows that Pm can not use branched starches (amylopectin). I have suspected as much, when I found literature showing that Pm is barely able to use disaccharides, and prefers to use organic acids as a carbon source (via the Kreb's Cycle).

I noticed that these references indicate, very clearly, that Bifidobacterium bifidum does not increase its growth with inulin. I take B. bifidum, at 20-40 billion CFU per day (Natren's Healthy Trinity). I have noticed that the beneficial effects of taking bifidum do not last more than a few days after stopping the probiotic supplement. I think this indicates that bifidum does not establish colonies in my gut, but just moves through with food / feces. I am on a diet, the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD), which is less strict than the NSD about starches, but more strict about lactose and sucrose (disaccharides). I think the SCD prevents the bifidum from establishing permanent gut colonies. And it appears that inulin supplementation will not help with this situation.

Yes, I have been on the wrong diet for 3 years, and only just (in the last year), figured that out. So, I am trying to gradually transition to a gluten-free, dairy-free, vegetarian diet.

I am currently testing the idea of taking a starchy bean, garbanzo beans, as hummus, with my evening bifidum supplement. Beans contain a non-digestible oligosaccharide (NDO), called galacto-oligosaccharide (GOS), in addition to starch. The results have, so far, been good. (I do not have the genetics for AS or, very fortunately for me, RA.) I have tried less starchy beans, including navy, kidney, and black beans, and not gotten this effect. These beans probably also contain GOS. So, I am somewhat confused by what is going on with bifidum and the hummus. It may be that the garbanzos must have more GOS in them, than the other beans. I should add that Natren's Healthy Trinity is cultured on garbanzo beans, meaning that the 3 bacteria in the supplement, L. acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, and B. bifidum, grow well on this. So it was a good bet for me to try this.

I realize that most beans are definitely off the NSD allowable food list, because of their starch content. So, can people on the NSD use bifidum, if inulin is not effective? I suppose you guys could take GOS supplements with bifidum, but maybe some of the other Bifidobacterium (breve and infantis) would be a better idea.

Pardon my rambling--I am still in the process of thinking through this whole prebiotic/probiotic situation.

I do think that it would be a good idea for me to post my opinion, that Pm overgrowth and RA should be treated with a gluten-free, dairy-free, vegetarian diet, not the LSD/NSD. I came to this conclusion by observing my own personal experience with Pm overgrowth, and reading papers on treatment of RA with diet. Especially this paper: "Rheumatoid arthritis: proposal for the use of anti-microbial therapy in early cases", A. Ebringer, T. Rashid, and C. Wilson, Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology, 2003, 32:2-11. This paper summarizes previous research on RA and diets, and recommends a vegetarian or vegan diet, among other treatments. I know some of the people posting on this site, have suggested that RA and PM be treated with the LSD/NSD. I am pretty sure that this is wrong. Pardon my bluntness.
Jan



Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 02/14/05 05:26 PM
Well, I've been using the salt water for quite a while now and I just had x-rays and a MRI done on my spine. It seems I have the spine of a healthy person! I still have arthritis in my neck and shoulders, but the back has cleared up. I am walking without a cane because my foot is much better too. Is it the salt water? I don't know for sure, but I do know I didn't start feeling better until I started drinking the salt water. If someone were to ask me if I would recommend them trying it, I would have to say definately. Thank you to Lamonty for posting this. I am also going to try a couple of others in conjunction with the salt water to see if i can become completely cleared.
Posted By: tinynic Re: Bacterial selection - 03/09/05 05:59 PM
I have been taking fish oils and cod liver oil along with the salt water for the past six weeks and I cannot believe the difference. I have not felt this good for a long time. Even my hips are most days pain free. I've even played a couple of games of hockey! I really hope this will help everyone. I am prescribed 2 celebrex per day, but I only take one. I want to get to the point I do not need to take any prescription drugs for AS at all. I am also in the process of returning to full time work. I had read earlier that sometimes AS will go into remission on its own, maybe that is what is happening and this is all a coincidence. If that is the case it is a huge coincidence. All I know is I am feeling much better for the time being. It doesn't hurt to try.
Posted By: zark Re: Bacterial selection - 03/11/05 01:44 AM
Quote:

Well, I've been using the salt water for quite a while now and I just had x-rays and a MRI done on my spine. It seems I have the spine of a healthy person!




Great to hear you are doing so well :-) keep us posted !
Posted By: davo Re: Bacterial selection - 03/22/05 10:46 AM
Hiya Monty.

the sauerkraut is something I've noticed helps, being a bit starchey not sure if it is a break down in the starch or what?

The water you cook/heat it in is used by our european friends as a hangover cure.....it works a friend of mine form those part of the woods got his prune fire water out and it was a killer next morning he fixed me....I was amazed.

Miso is something else, but just miso is n't as good, I'm currently working on that now, I think I've found out why.......!

Also Salt drinks force fluid back into the bowel i think it is an osmosis thingy..

David
Posted By: Ruby7 Re: Bacterial selection - 03/03/06 01:54 AM
I was looking for a thread on pro-biotics and came across this one --lots of interesting info on salt water, certainly worth a try.

I was also thinking of adding a glass of sauerkraut juice into my daily regime. I have U.C. (ulcerative colitis) as well as A.S. and a naturopath has recommended sauerkraut juice for U.C. before. Would the juice be as effective (maybe more?) I don't think I could eat sauerkraut (thought makes me nauseous) yet I have enjoyed the juice in the past.

The question I am searching for an answer remains unanswered. What is the best type of good bacteria pro-biotic to take for A.S. Acidophilus? Bifidus?
Posted By: Hendo Re: Bacterial selection - 03/03/06 03:50 PM
I have recently tried the Acidopholus as a kind of test. The initial reaction was a really bad stomach for maybe 3-4 days which I assume is my system getting used to the new bacteria. Then all settled down and things have been normal. I suffer from IBS, primarily as a by product of anxiety attacks - in this respect the pro-biotics have given no measurable improvement.
I have recently adopted the no starch diet, and that seems to have had a greater positive effect on my digestive system than the pro-biotic.
So though I am still taking Acidophulus really the jury is still out. I will discontinue when the bottle is empty and see what transpires.
hope this helps....
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