Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group My new proposal!

DISCLAIMER: This is a joke, this is only a joke. If I had actually been serious, you would have been instructed where to tune in your area to vote. This is only a joke.

Apparently I must have sounded serious. It's not directed at all doctors -- I have great respect for all of the doctors that I've known in my 46 years, except for this one. Had he tested me for the obvious (and it was very obvious), he would have found reactive arthritis and treated that, not with drugs that gave me acquired aplastic anemia. Instead, he would have started antibiotics. Fortunately, I have found a new one, he's wonderful! Brilliant! The problem with the old one is that he makes jokes about being happy to be an underachiever, and the final straw was telling me (after my marrow was dying and I could no longer be treated) that I would "just have to live with a few aches and pains." If that's all this was, none of us would be given meds of any type. I don't think he's adequate, and made a joke about it. Sorry for offending anyone.

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Original post:

The last time I saw the old rheumy, he asked me how grad school was going. I told him fine, I'm at the top of my class, etc. He laughed and said, "In med school our saying was, 'C=MD.' You don't need A's to get an MD, C's will do just fine!" I was so impressed (yeah right!). (Remember that he's now referred to as the "old rheumy.")

My proposal is that doctors should have to post (framed!) their transcripts from med school, on the waiting room walls, so we can see their grades in each subject and how they did overall, and run before it's too late. Also, their standing in there class should be listed, too -- top 10%, 50th percentile, last, etc. (We just had that old joke recently -- what do you call the doc who finishes last in his class? "Doctor.")

What do you think? Vote here!



We all need 3 things: Someone to love, something to do, & something to hope for.

Edited by PattyG on 03/16/03 05:52 PM (server time).

Yeah, I can see your point Patty but in the final analysis, what makes a good Doctor is the way he/she handles their patients and makes sure they get the best and most appropriate care. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the information was available, that all the Doctors that many of us have complained about in our posts, all graduated at the top of their class.

But, on the other hand, how would you feel about landing in an airplane while knowing that your pilot only got 61% in his landing skills test but he was however, the nicest and most entertaining pilot you had ever travelled with?

And how high a mark would you need to graduate as an Engineer who builds big bridges?

What was that little chant that Jeanna was doing during her exams? Something like "60 and go"? Hmmmm.

If you change your proposal to have it include Politicians too, then I will vote a big MAYBE.

George

Breb Assyl

Patty:

Perhaps I shouldn't be replying to your post, I don't mean to taint others' responses with what I have to say, and I don't mean to discourage them from replying either. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

As George has already pointed out - my 'chant' at exam time is "6-0 and GO!". Yup, that's right, I only need 60% on each of my exams to get through to the next part of my training. Is it what I aim for? Of course not! But it's about the only thing that keeps me sane enough to be able to cope in weeks building up to the exam.

I've obtained two degrees already - a BSc (Hons) in Genetics, and an MSc in Microbiology. My marks were obviously in the top whatever precentile they needed to be in --- otherwise I wouldnt be where I am now.

Medical school is like nothing I've ever experienced before. I was in one of the most demanding undergraduate science programs my university had to offer, but it was a walk in the park compared to this. I have lectures or labs or tutorials or clinical practice from 9 to 5 everyday. In one hour intervals we're taught by the best in their field, which inevitably means they've lost the ability to speak about their discipline at an beginner's level. There's too much to be able to preview all the material the night before, and even if I sit down at my desk as soon as I arrived home everyday, there's no way I could review it all each night. This is something I did regularly as in undergrad. Again - to keep my sanity I don't even try anymore.

While most people know that medical school is 4 years long, they fail to realize that we only spend two years of that doing book learning - we spend the other two practicing the little knowledge that we've accumulated. So that means, we attempt to learn everything about each body system in two years! There's no way that you can learn it all in your first run-through ... and I'm sure the marks reflect that to some degree. Keep in mind though - that we learn it all now, then we do it all over again in a clinical setting and then we do it all over again for a period of 2 - 5 years in whichever discipline we've chosen.

If you wanted me to post my transcript along with my degree in my office, you'd be disappointed. My school (like most other Canadian universities) is on a pass/fail system. At the end of it all my transcript will indicate only that I've passed. The faculty does it in an attempt to alleviate some of the unbearable stress they impose on us. Furthermore they do it to try to eliminate the competition between classmates. Of course it's still there - but (hopefully) it reduces some of the cut-throat tactics that would otherwise ensue if each of us were still clammering for the #1 spot.

What's more is that I'm not convinced that marks are all they're cracked up to be. Good marks on standardized tests needed to get into medical school beget good marks on exams throughout medical school, and those in turn beget good marks on standardized liscensing exams at the end of it all. Howver, It's been shown time and time again, that these sorts of marks are more a representation of socioeconomic status than of knowledge or ability.

Interestingly, good marks on these standardized tests are inversely proportional to clinical performance evaluations through clerkship years.

Further irony is that while everyone talks about how my own medical condition will ultimately make me a better physician, it's contributed largely to my lower than usual grades over the last couple of years. If my school did give letter grades, and I was required to post it on the wall, sadly, it wouldn't come with the addendum that might make people think twice before they left my office.

Regards,
Jeanna

It is on the edge of a petal



that love waits - WC Williams

Well, George, I can see your point if you can show me some acceptable reasons for poor (albeit passing) grades in med school. The reasons I can think of are not acceptable to me: 1) Not interested in studying hard enough to excel in the field of medicine, 2) No aptitude for the subject (it's "too hard") . . . I don't want either of those treating me. If you don't have the aptitude, find another field. Ditto interest in learning their job. Any other ideas why they would get low grades -- something acceptable, that we shouldn't mind?

I never "dissed" docs until I got this rheumy. But what reason could there be for him not to test for reactive arthritis, especially when I've said repeatedly that when I'm on antibiotics for unrelated stuff, the arthritis goes away (3 times in 18 months that's happened)? If it were his wife, I'd bet he would have pushed for a doc to get to the bottom of it, fast.

So I return to my original idea (not realistic, but very entertainiing at least) that they should post their grades! And their track record of success and failures with patients . . . (anything else we should add?)

Hugs, and you take good care,

Patty

P.S. Here's something interesting -- I teach English. In our university, and many back East (where I'm from) as well, when we take comprehensive at the end of our post-grad studies, regardless of grades, 25% of students have to be failed, regardless of how they did. It's the rule. And all I'm doing is teaching English! Go figure!

P.P.S. (EDIT) And the new doc has zero "personality" factor -- he's not rude or anything -- more like the proverbial mad scientist. I wonder sometimes if he even knows I'm in the room. But he's brilliant and cares to dig to the bottom. That's my criteria for someone who has my life in my hands. (After the old rheumy killed off my marrow with his drugs, he said, "Well, now you'll have to learn to live with a few aches and pains." I gave him my best stare (teachers are good at that) and said that this is NOT a few "aches and pains.")



We all need 3 things: Someone to love, something to do, & something to hope for.

Edited by PattyG on 03/16/03 05:25 PM (server time).

Jeanna,

{{{{{HUGS!}}}}} Miss you!

You hit it right on the head -- you're trying so hard, but the thing I posted was that this doc said that they all joked and said C=MD (I suppose like a twist on E=Mc2)! It was his attitude when he said it -- like, "Why are you trying so hard in school -- all you have to do is get out and get a degree. That was my motto." That motto isn't good enough for me personally (my own post-grad studies), or in my doctor.

Anyway, it was only meant to be humorous, but I appreciate your response! I know you'll be a wonderful doctor -- the caring will make you strive to help your patients. Even if you don't know, you will work hard to make sure that they get the care they need.

I think of you often, and take care,

Hugs,

Patty

P.S. And I'm not going to proof this, so you can make fun of any errors you find.

P.P.S. (EDIT) And I really wasn't trying to be rude or mean -- as I've said before -- I generally don't dis docs or call them names like quack-quack and other things I've seen people say in posts -- but there really are bad docs, disinterested, and that's reality. However, this post was only meant to be funny. So sorry. I would never insult you that way.



We all need 3 things: Someone to love, something to do, & something to hope for.

Edited by PattyG on 03/16/03 05:30 PM (server time).

Patty,
Medical students don't stop doing well because they're uncommitted, if that were the case they wouldn't last the first block. They stop achieving the A's that they're used to because it's an insane amount of information, and an inhumane program of study.

The wide-sweeping generalizations about doctors that intermittently appear here are perhaps predictable because many members have had bad experiences, but these posts seem to come from the most intelligent members and that I fail to understand. Surely you know better than to tar all doctors with the same brush?

I've seen it from most angles. Patient mostly, also doctors in the family, but most of all my friends, many of whom went on to become docs. I've held fretting hands and sat for long hours listening troubles as they've battle through the torture of med school.

As it happens I've been lucky enough to have a fantastic team of committed medical professionals battling to keep me well, there's good and bad in every profession, teaching included.

Please, no more ‘all docs are bad’ generalisations from anyone, it’s unreasonable and it's unfair.


  LZ

I had the same experience of a schedule SO crazy I couldn't even study in college....I have a BS in Music Education, certified from k-12 to teach. And the main reason I'm not teaching now is I was so burned out by the time I graduated I didn't even go to my graduation ceremony. Instead I went straight home. I'm still recovering from burnout!


I'm not saying teaching music is ANYTHING like the medical field, obviously it's not......but there were times when I was going from 5AM to 12 AM just trying to keep my grades REASONABLE. We had to learn everything about every instrument in every time period in about 2 years.

Also, marching band was a requirement for two years...mind you, I really had a blast, but doing marching band ALONE for sometimes 10+ hours a week for ONE LOUSY HALF CREDIT kept me so fatigued half the time I had little or no mind left to do anything else quality-wise. (So if anyone thinks marching band isnt' a sport, YOU try it and see if that doesn't change your thinking!!! )

And for someone who was beginning to experience arthritic pains there were many things I could have done differently had I known what I was up against sooner. So I totally understand too the frustration of having a condition keeping your grades down.

But OTOH I think Patty refers to the ones who really don't CARE. You obviously aren't like that Grades aren't everything, but the lack of concern for excellence as a student pretty much translates into the same thing for the patients.

Rox
SURIYAH!!!


Images courtesy of http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com
http://www.geocities.com/artisan1998.geo/index.html

Actually, that *is* a requirement for some colleges in the US, you must maintain a B+ average or higher. I think my college Alma Mater has had this requirement, but only for the past four or so years.

Along with Jeanna, my condition has had a detrimental effect on my grades.....I was way too tired all the time from something I couldn't explain and my grades were terrible sometimes because of it.


But in your doctor's case, his attitude was entirely inappropriate. I think most people, like me for example love to bust docs so much becuase it is SO HARD to find a good doctor. It's appaling to me that people have to wait 20+ years sometimes for a diagnosis, that "women can't have AS" and "men don't get fibro", etc.etc.etc. It's revolting to hear stories from people, over and over on here, going to a doctor to say "I hurt", and getting blown off or told IAIYH or to exercise. It makes me furious. Or rather, in your case, "this works for me" and getting told "Nah, it doesn't", or simply being ignored.


Of course docs in the US have the DEA breathing down their necks so pain relief is frankly not to their best interest.

As long as ONE PERSON gets a bad doctor, there are too many bad doctors in the world. And what's really sad is their potential patients are simply too sick to do anything about it on a national level.

The medical profession better start listening to their patients and stop selling themselves to the drug companies (at least here in the US) or there will be some VERY BAD KARMA to pay.

Rox
SURIYAH!!!


Images courtesy of http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com
http://www.geocities.com/artisan1998.geo/index.html

Patty I think I understand were your at. There is nothing better than hooking up with a good and caring doctor. No better feeling, but then on the other hand to get a doc who doesnt seem to care enough to truely find out what is wrong with you is so maddening. Ive been there and know were the jokes come into play. I once had a doc when I was in the hospital with pneumonia. On about 3rd day my room-mates doc came in to see her and told her he wouldnt be in the next day but would send his associate too check on her. Next day came and my doc walked in went over to her checked her lungs, she also had pneumonia, said well you sound so good you can go home today. He walked out and I thought maybe to get my chart, didnt come back in. I called down to desk and ask the nurse to check see if id been discharged, she said well yes you have. I told her that is funny my doc didnt check my lungs but checked my roomy. About 10 minutes later my doctor came in and said very angrily, "Well why didnt you say something, I said well your the doctor I dont know what your doing. I thought you were seeing my roommate also. I just thought It would have been nice if beings he messed up would have said oh Im sorry about that. BUT NO! Its easy to feel the urge to diss certain doctors that dont do a good job because i feel the urge sometimes with at least half of the ones Ive seen. But i can also say when I get a good doctor he is worth his weight in gold. If there are people out there who cant relate I would say to them, You have had all great doctors and that is great. Sorry Ive rambled on but do understand this one. I also know somedays that a sense of humor may be the only thing that can keep me going. Take care>>>Connie

Patty, it's not just the pass marks they get. What worries me is whether they actually believe all that stuff they are taught. My favourite bedtime reading is Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy, probably the most famous of all medical treatises, published at the begining of the 17th century. But if I saw one of those physicians moving toward me now with intent to bleed or purge me I would immediately be on my feet, running for the door, miraculously cured! And I suspect that in another century or so the sight of the present crop of practitioners of physic would elicit much the same response!

Edited by bilko on 03/17/03 07:45 AM (server time).