Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group Intriguing question about autoimmune workings

Ok, this has been something that has captured my attention for many many years and no doctor has ever even bothered to do more then grunt at me when asked...

The history:

When I was just about 13, I and all my 5 other brothers and sisters, came down with a very nasty case of measles. Called "Hard Measles" by the old wife's club as they lasted two weeks, consisted of all the regular measles complaints but with fevers upwards of 106, severe eye pain and sensitivity to light. The treatment then, 31 years ago, was to stay as cool as possible, drink plenty of water and eat whatever meals would not be brought up by such a high fever. We were given aspirin, bathed in alcohol, and not allowed to have lights on in out rooms, read or watch TV for fear our eyes would be effected. I was still recovering on my 13th birthday.

Sometime in that same year as the "Hard Measles", the whole lot of us came down with a lighter, easier and shorter case of measles without the extremely high temps or severe eye sensitivities. Mom was told by the doctor that we had all had German Measles and therefore would be immune with GM antibodies.

Also, in this same time frame, in school, we all of us were vaccinated against German Measles. I believe it was before because I can vaguely remember my mother being peeved at having to care for six incredibly ill children who shouldn't have been getting ill if they had been vaccinated.

(Small note: my AS symptoms began at about age 14, roughly the same time as did my brother's)

Fast forward to age 19 when I gave birth to my first child. It had just become common practice by 1977 to test every new mother for the German Measles antibody and if not present they were vaccinated. They didn't tell me I had a choice and was too young and stupid to ask. I was vaccinated.

I went on to become pregnant 8 more times. Only two resulted in live births but no matter the outcome of the pregnancy I was tested, found to have no GM antibodies and was vaccinated again... except for the last time when I was to be taking my baby home where I knew three women would come in contact with me who were either in the early stages of their own pregnancies or were trying to conceive. Not wanting to be a health concern for them I refused the vaccine. I was subjected to a rather lengthy dialog as to how dangerous it would be for my child and myself should we come down with the measles.
I explained that I had been vaccinated a total of nine times for German Measles, had suffered through two distinctly different forms of measles, one of which had to be GM and if I didn't any antibodies after all that one more vaccine wasn't going to do the trick. I refused.

Every one of my brothers and sisters has some form of back problems, half of them have complained about back pain for years upon years but deny they have a problem and will not seek help. My oldest brother was dx with AS, Crohn's, Iritis and IBS. I have AS. My oldest sister is in the process of being dx'ed with AS with all the distinct symptoms that I have, she has suffered for over thirty years. In addition our biological father had AS and died of coronary complications associated with AS.

My question is this... Why do I not show antibodies to German measles after so many vaccinations and bout with the disease? I had always pondered this and no doctor would ever even listen to the question full through. Then when I was dx'ed with AS and learned it is an autoimmune based disease it started to niggle at me again. I would love to see all my brothers and sisters tested for GM antibodies just out of curiosity.

Anyone have any things like this happen?
Any of the "Brains" out there have any thought?
I'm stumped, but very intrigued.

On with the thinking caps everyone!

Winona





"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves"
Lewis Carroll

Dear Winona:

AS is often the result of a triggering event, usually a pathogen that can compromise the intestinal tract. Once the process has begun, the immune system is often depleted into a condition called 'anergy,' where immune components cannot be produced fast enough to meet common challenges. Perhaps it was always under such an adverse situation that you were tested and retested for the measles reaction.

There is the possibility that what you and siblings had initially was not measles at all, but some water or food borne illness (especially giardiasis, shigellosis, Delhi belly, etc) that began your AS process and might explain the abnormally high incidence within your family.

Just some thoughts


Best Regards,
John

i have seen some literature from "alternative doctors" who warn against vaccination. not sure why because i didnt read the stuff carefully. perhaps those with delicate immune systems and genetic predispositions, the vaccinations can trigger strange immune responses.

-ken

Hi John,

'Well, I will stake my reputation on the fact that I was immunized at least 9 times and yet never developed the antibodies. And I was old enough to remember both bouts with the measles. Only difference between them was the severity of the fever and the eye sensitivity.

I will grant that whenever I have been tested I was recovering from a delivery, or a surgery and I was usually in tired shape.
But still can't understand the antibodies. All three of my kids have had German Measles ( I never vaccinate my kids) and I nursed each one and never caught it. I just thought it was interesting.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Winona

"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves"
Lewis Carroll

Winona:

The point is that you probably did develop the antibodies, but there were so few of these avaliable whenever you were tested that your blood just did not indicate, using the older methods of evaluation. The fact that you never got German measles again actually means that you have active (if not easily measured) antibodies to it.

TTFN,
John

Thanks John... still learning about all this.

I am on the NSD (best thing that I ever tried in 30 years of dealing with AS) but I fell off the wagon with chocolate covered pecan turtles and I'm coming over the top of a bad flare.

I have a question for you off this subject though. In my wonderings last night (Prednisone induced insomnia) I found a site about CMO. In my searches on KA I see your the only one who has posted about using it.
I am curious about what you took with it. Did you take Milk Thistle or some other liver cleansing suppliment either before or during? Also, any Glucosamine or other things?

I see one site that says you should take milk thistle with CMO, and also with digestive enzymes and another says to take it with enzymes but stop any liver cleansers like milk thistle before starting on CMO.

All of them seem to think taking Glusosamine and cartilage suppliments would improve the effectiveness of CMO.

Too much info and too many variables for me to take in right now.

I've pretty much ruled out the drugs the rheumy has suggested and I don't want to stay on Celebrex. I certainly don't want to have to keep jumping back to Prednisone but it's the only things I'm not allergic to that touches my big flares.

Any info you can give me on your go-around with CMO would be appreciated.

Thanks again, Winona

"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves"
Lewis Carroll

Hey Winona , Here's a lot of info on Vaccines , maybe you can find some answers http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/ . The grunt you got from the doctor was probably all the info he had ! Talk Later.

Bruce

Hey, Winona:

I did use CMO for a very brief few days, but I originally thought that it initiated a severe flare, so quit taking it right away. In retrospect, starting the CMO was probably just coincident with an attack of colitis that had been smoldering and ready to pounce, so I am not anxious to blame this supplement, and may repeat the experiment after the ravages of whatever I had have totally abated.

Another ASer (not often on this forum) has had extensive experience with it and followed the directions to the letter (using the enzyme supplement), but did not have any improvement at all. I would go with the enzyme co-supplement after a liver detoxification; taking it at the same time does not make sense to me and the enzyme is recommended by Zampieron, et al in their arthritis sourcebook.

Good speed in reducing the flare, and it is too bad you have to leave your rheumy, but California is worth it...

Best Regards,
John

Thanks for the info John.

I understand about the liver detox beforehand, makes perfect sense. But I do have another question. (Big surprise huh? Day two of my Prednisone insomnia, three to go! What fun)

My question comes from something I read on one of the many sites I visited last night about CMO... (and now can't find again. Drat!)
But basically it said, in essence, that the CMO would move through the liver too slowly without a small amount of milk thistle to help it process through. And would keep the CMO itself from building up in the liver.

I would be interested to know if the basic benefit of CMO is achieved before or after being processes by the liver. I would imagine that this would make a difference in whether or not a small amount of milk thistle would be necessary or beneficial.

Am I making any sense? I need some sleep.

Hope you can give me some ideas.

If I do try the CMO I will wait until after I am out of all flares, settled in Calif and able to give it a good shot.

And yes, Calif is definitely worth giving up a good rheumy. I'm a Calif native and have only been gone for 2 years due to my husband's work. Can hardly wait to get back to green grass and trees again. Colorado is brown... a l l... y e a r.... looonnnnggggg.....

Thanks again for all the responses.

Be well, Winona

"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves"
Lewis Carroll