Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Starch, No Starch and Gut Bugs

Interesting... I looked at that product a long time ago, I read the book "The Makers Diet", the author is the founder of Garden Life that makes Primal Defense.

I had wanted to try the supplement many years ago, but did not after reading the list of ingredients.

I just reviewed what I could... states it does not have FOS, so I cannot recall why I was leary of trying it.

I am going to look around here in Argentina if they have it here.

Tim

I found the issue at least with capsule product.. the capsule contains starch (rice) it appears. I have struggled with capsules as such in past with supplements.

I cannot find a powder form here in Argentina.

Its important to understand that the reason a lot of these probiotics come packaged with "Potato Starch" or "Rice flour" is because the microbes contained within are generally starch eaters. The rice flour/potato starch is a prebiotic for the bacteria to attach to and feed on.

If you are not feeding the bacteria their preferred food of which they can attach to and multiply, then in all likelihood you are not allowing them to establish a dominant colony. Something like 80% of microbes feed on starch they say.

I have been supplementing my diet over the last 3-4 months with 4 x tablespoons of raw unmodified Potato starch per day (which gives me the optimum amount of resistant starch per day) which makes its way to the large intestine undigested and feeds the gut bacteria contained within.....no doubt it also feeds Klebsiella.

Its a case of you feed all the microbes in your gut, but make sure you introduce enough of the good ones (which an individual may be deficient in) to crowd out the bad.

From what I am reading, if you try these probiotics on a no starch diet you are possibly wasting your money. It might be a case of you have to go backwards a bit before you go forward in terms of inflammation but that's something I am prepared to try.

I have also been eating green bananas, potatoes, white rice and other "clean" starches to feed my gut bacteria. I am controlling any inflammation well enough using Dyclofenac which I've never been able to get off entirely (even on no starch) for any longer than 3-4 weeks max before inflammation becomes unbearable. Now I take 100mg of slow release Dyclofenac (something I'm keen to get off to enable full gut healing) every 48 hours and it works for me quite well but my goal is to get rid of them totally. 14 years Dyclofenac so far....but it works for me with seemingly little side effects. It seems to have halted any disease progression/bone formations when we look my x-rays however I still have consistent CRP levels at 20 (both before on no starch, and now on moderate starch intake).

Have a read of this quite good FAQ on the subject of probiotics and potato starch etc.

http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/p/faqs.html

Would FOS or inulin be a safer option as a prebiotic for those of us sensitive to starch? I seem to handle asparagus and artichoke as long as I don't overdo them and they have inulin, I think. There's been a lot of talk on the autoimmune paleo board about the necessity of starch to feed good bacteria.

That said - I had a stool test a couple years ago, four years into no starch diet, and my probiotic numbers were good.

I emailed "Garden of Life" (the makers of Primal Defense) asking if the specific "L. casei subsp. rhamnosus Lcr35" and "B. bifidum 1/85 phi" were the strains included in their product.

Unfortunately as I suspected they don't give that info out because its "proprietary" so whether or not that specific strain is included is unknown.

However this appears to contain the "L.casei rhamnosus LCR35" strain as it advertises it as the only strain they have in it. Note: Contains starches, milk, sugars....

http://www.truehealth.com/ultimate-3biotic

Hi MCM, I believe FOS feeds bacteria in the large intestine just as well as starch does in some cases. Hence some people can't deal with garlic, asparagus and so on. These types of foods make their way to the large intestine where they are fermented by gut bacteria.

I have issues with FOS in supplements.. but never have issues with asparagus or garlic.

Unsure why the difference.

Noted some here have issues with asparagus and others do not. I call it a fringe food.

Tim

I understand your approach and I hope to slowly bring back in more starch slowly but surely. I can now eat some foods in past I could not... next big hurdle with be quinoa or rice that is more easily digestible.

However.. the amount of starch you are consuming would have me in all kinds of pain with nights of maybe 3-4 hours of sleep at best... no NSAID I ever took could even touch those pain levels. Only medication that helped was azulfadine that I had to stop for liver problems.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Yeah when I was at my worst NSAID couldn't do anything for me either. The no starch approach fixed that fast. I am now eating seemingly ridiculous amounts of starches at times. 3 cups of cooked white rice the other night with dinner. But that's because I'm on a quest to add some bulk to my frame because I got skinny and I do intermittent fasting every day so have to eat large meals.

I tend to think that even with regular NSAID use, cutting starches and eliminating wheat, gluten, grains, and then sugars, dairy, inflammatory Omega 6 vegetable oils and processed foods from my diet has allowed some level of gut healing to take place to allow me to now eat the so called "clean" starches.