Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group Is AS a Disease or a Reaction?

Hi, Wendy:

I hope we find the answers someday for Lupus (SLE), but RA is probably Proteus mirabilis and MS could be due to Acinetobacter calcoaceticus; we are still waiting on the final results of the tests.

Ebringer had to differentiate between AS and RA in early stages, so found the germ that causes RA, also (1984). We will publish his papers on this soon.

Regards,
John

Hi John, I think i have been doing research on the benefits of the diet because of your strong belief in it. I am curious though. Have you done any test on yourself by pausing the antibiotic intake to see just how much the diet alone is helping or even just did the antibiotics and not the diet? Or have you concluded that both is needed? It makes sense that the antibiotic approach would be beneficial because it does attach the cause. I have read that the wrong antibiotics can cause the opposite effect.

That sounds about right...dont like to admit it to my wife but i think there has been some eye leakage in the mornings for me as well

It's a relief not to be in that state right now. Whether it's methotrexate or low dose prednisone that's making the difference, I'm very grateful.

I still have significant morning pain and stiffness that lasts 3 -4 hours but the level is more like a 4-5 than a screaming 8-9. (I reserve 10 for dying or in hospital, virtually unconscious).

Hi Reese,
Im like you I cant say in all my years off pain Ive ever had what they call a flare unless mine has just lasted 48 years. I dont know the answers to your very good questions. I just do what I feel happy and comfortable with to lead a fairly good life. Good luck to those who believe in the diet and find comfort from it at the end of the day thats what matters being comfortable and leading the best most enjoyable life you can. Life is very short and the time passes very fast.I have this Disease I Live with it as best I can and in the most part I am happy. Spending your life thinking there is a cure in every thing people say is a waste of time and life. IF they find a cure then you will know. Dont get me wrong I really hope they do one day so people dont have to suffer this. AS has been around many thousands of years and look how far we have come to finding a cure so how much longer. Well how long is a piece of string.

Kevin

Good advise Kevin. I think i am gradually getting there with my acceptance of this. You probably have seen hundreds of people with the same questions and concerns on here throughout the years havn`t you? Its been good to talk about it.

Interesting stuff. Being me, I immediately had to start researching this bacteria. I found a research project from 1998 that suggests proteus mirabilis as a trigger for RA. Here's the abstract:

Abstract
Objectives: patients with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are reported to have in their sera raised levels of antibody specific to Proteus mirabilis. The aim of the study was to verify this and to determine an explanation for it by investigating the frequency of P. mirabilis urinary tract infection in RA patients and matched controls.

Methods: freshly voided urine was examined for the presence, number and identity of infecting bacteria. The levels of antibody in blood and in urine of the IgM, IgA and IgG classes to the common O serotypes of P. mirabilis and the antigens to which they reacted were determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) and immunoblotting.

Results: analysis of urine from 76 patients with RA and 48 age- and gender-matched health controls showed that only two (4%) of the control urines but 25 (33%) of those from the RA patients were infected. The commonest infecting organism in the RA patients' urine was Proteus mirabilis which occurred twice as frequently as Escherichia coli. Proteus mirabilis was found in 52% of the infected urines of the RA patients and was always detected as a pure growth and usually in insignificant (<104/ml) numbers. It is highly improbable that this finding was the outcome of differences in age, physical ability or medication between the RA and control patient groups. Comparison of antibody levels to P. mirabilis by ELISA showed RA patients had raised (P < 0.0001, P = 0.001, P = 0.0063) levels of IgA, IgG and IgM respectively in their sera and raised (P < 0.0001, P < 0.0001, P = 0.0001) levels of IgG, IgM and IgA respectively in their urine compared with the control group. It was not possible to detect an antibody reacting to a P. mirabilis antigen that was specific to the RA patients.

Conclusion: the results confirm that RA patients have raised levels of antibody to P. mirabilis not only in blood but also in urine and suggest that this arises because RA patients have an asymptomatic, non-significant P. mirabilis bacteriuria more frequently or more prolonged than control patients. This may be the trigger for their RA condition.[1]


What interests me is that only 33% of the RA patients had evidence of infection by proteus mirabilis so there may be multiple possible triggers for RA and maybe for all auto-immune diseases.

[1] B.W. Senior et al, "Evidence that patients with rheumatoid arthritis have asymptomatic ‘non-significant’ Proteus mirabilis bacteriuria more frequently than healthy controls" Abstract, Journal of Infection, (vol 38, issue 2,1999) 99-106

I have noticed this through many of the studies. What i wonder though too are any of these patients currently on TNF`s or other immunity hindering drugs. If they are of course many of the bacteria levels are going to be higher. They dont seem to say what the current medications are. Then i wonder too if these levels are a result of the disease or the cause.

Goodness yes, yes that was it wow, yes I remember her......Pandora yes she is a bracelet now........well I'll be jiggered........

Yes, of course, Reese, the chicken or the egg? Did the research participants have higher levels of P. mirabilis because they had RA or did they get RA because of P. mirabilis? Is there any relationship to the impaired immune function?