Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; to those of you who have AS w/ the nsd -a question

i have this question. i have been reading this site and the theory is that if you get AS late in life ( im 50 and you test negative for hlab27 and are w/o sacroillitis, then the odds are you probably have the LG and the culprit is klebsiella bacteria that transgresses the gut into your back and joints. that being the case, isnt it then considered reiters arthritis and not really AS?
i have PA that i know of for sure but have several bad infections with my gut from too long on an anti-biotics for other illnesses. i got c. dificle and had to take flagyl to combat the overgrowth of bad flora in my intestines. so now i have this illness and i am thinking it is really from reiters and not real AS as my sacro is not fused and it probably would be by now since i am 50.

Hi Amy,

The first year I changed my diet I did a lot of reading on nutrition, arthritis, alternatives, diet etc... I came to the conclusion that a lot of the illnesses we see these days come from the GI not being in good working order.

From a text book medical diagnosis, beyond a reasonable doubt I have AS... family history, early morning stiffness, HLA B27 and confirmed via X-ray...

But I believe if more and more research was done at route cause rather than treating symptoms where the money is made... we will get more answers to questions such as yours and find that we indeed may have many slight variations of a similar disease.

But I still believe the GI is the key for me

My 2 cents...

Tim

thank you. i was tested for xray but it appears negative for sacro. however, i am stillwaiting for the blab27 to come back and that i will find out on tuesday. but i am hearing if you dont have the sacro involvement then most likely you dont have true AS, whether or not you test +/- for hlab27. is this so? some people have +/- and still have a sacroillitis + xray.
i am very confused about what is wrong with me. my brother has PA that i know of and so did my mom for sure. PA can involve spinal arthritis and i have skin psorisis in my scalp working for 3 yrs that i know of. mom had it in her scalp and ance vugarlus as a teen and ibs in her early 40's. she then went on to Dx w/illiac sprue and went on all gluten/wheat free diet. which helped her.
there are alot of similarities between PA and AS.
so i really dont know what i have at this point as they both test for hlab27 for both....

Hi, Amy:

Quote:

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i have this question. i have been reading this site and the theory is that if you get AS late in life ( im 50 and you test negative for hlab27 and are w/o sacroillitis, then the odds are you probably have the LG and the culprit is klebsiella bacteria that transgresses the gut into your back and joints. that being the case, isnt it then considered reiters arthritis and not really AS?

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I would prefer stating it this way: Reiter's Syndrome is a reactive arthritis usually caused by Chlamydia trachomatis. If the Reiter's Syndrome becomes chronic, in genetically susceptible individuals (ie B27 and B7CREG), it will become AS, which is also a reactive arthritis caused by Klebsiella. The Chlamydia causes intestinal lesions which are subsequently invaded by Klebsiella.

Since you have developed symptoms much later than normal, you will (probably) not yet have SIJ fusion even if you have AS and not PA.

The bacterium (Klebsiella) does not directly travel to the sites of autoimmune attack, but it is our own immune system which has been triggered by the presence of the bacterium that begins to manufacture the offending agent (immunoglobulin--IgA; IgA-Kp).

Antigen-negative people can have AS, but the course of AS in women is different than 'normal' so you can skip sciatica and even sacroiliitis, or it could have been mild--subclinical and not done much damage.

Clostridium is a terrible organism and the colitis that can result from this can cause polyarthritis or even AS, if you have the 'right' genetics. A very good book to help you, also with the potential for candidiasis, is by Zampieron, et al: Arthritis: An Alternative Medicine Definitive Guide.

Good Luck to You,
John

thank you all especially dragonslayer this was very informative. the c dificle was rough for me. it took a long time to get rid of it. i didnt have as much pain from the spine last year as i do now with my spine. now it is curving to the left lumbar convex scoliosis at l5,l4,l3 L-2. it looks bad on the xray but oddly enough no sacroillitis dx for me. hips dont hurt. just lower back and T section and neck, on days when i dont take the msm, liquid glousaimnme condrotion and celadrin, hurts worse and neck locks up to the point where i cant move it at all. cant get outta bed in the am, and awful bad fatique during the day. walking or any excercise hurts it more not helps it. but then again i have several HNP's going on with my spine also.
so far no wheat and gluten/lactose in my diet and no ibs now. what about taking probiotics like acidolphous, papain, amylase in pill form as i am cutting out dairy for now.

I take two probiotic supplements to help correct and disbyosis and now keep the klebs in place (minimize their numbers). But need to be careful when choosing product... I found any product with FOS helped to feed the klebs.

Also take digestive enzymes to help break down food.

You can do some searches and find several threads discussing both in this forum if interested.

Tim

It is convenient medically and personally to categorize and name a condition, but if/as you accept, as most here do, that we have a gut problem firstly, there is evidence to show that the symptoms we suffer are linked to WHERE in the GIT the damage and bugs are.
This is why i can have RA then AS while others have Crohns, AS, IBD, PA and other conditions while others are either between conditions or do not fit in anywhere at all, but may respond to the diet...
There can be a continuum of damage down the gut or separate in 2-3-more places.
Similarities are obvious, differences abound.
The advantage of a diagnosis of sorts is slotting into a system somewhere and it may be irrelevant what the label is as long as we can get to resources.
My AS exercise class tonite, gym and lovely hot pool with an instructor, virtually free - some people there who i would say had a condition nothing like mine - maybe just a sore back or knee - even osteo. Others, who are in pain and inflam, just do not have something the same as others.

Hi Monty- I am just very confused about my 'condition' and want to make sure that I can at least get a diagnoses of some kind so that I can treat what ever I have.
I am unsure to say whether or not if I have AS or most likely a bowel disease like illac sprue. I know that I have psoriasis for sure with my skin. That being said, I know that it can develope into an arthritis condition which probably has. All the confusion for me stems from the HLAB27 and how AS & PA and a host of other illneses come from whether or not being positive or negative rests upon a proper diagnoses. But since this illness is so hard to identify especially for women, because it seems women differ from men's symptoms.

This is now my 5th day or so of a gluten, wheat, lactose free diet ( not NSD though) and I have not had any IB so far, but rather more of a constipation connundrum. But I am also taking norco which can be binding. I do eat alot of apples so as to try to keep me going.
I am now taking amylase, bromelain, papain, betaine, papaya in tablet form once daily along with Natren's healthy trinity ( w/o FOS) and dairy free, which contains lacobacilus acidophilus/bulgaricus- LB-51 L. delbrueckii subspecies bulgaricus super strain (both 5 billion, cfu) and bifidobacterium bifidum super strain malyoth, 20 billion cfu. This mixture also contains sunflower oil,gelatin, and mixed tocopherols.
I still have unpleasant smelling gas. Maybe I should have had a culture done on me before I began taking these supplements. I am also taking coral calicum in liquid form which has 70 other trace minerals (1000mg) by drinkables brand. I am taking celadrin softgels, liquid glousamine and that brand is called smytec.
I am finding it hard to go without starches. I switched to tapicoa breads from the health food stores and millett bread. I am eating pure applesauce and adding cinnamin to it. I am now cooking with extra virgil olice oil or boiling my meats/chicken.
I dont know what else to eat, I feel I have come a long way so far even with this. But I am going to need to do more in the way of honing my dietary habits.
What scares me the most is that last year my lumbar spine was not as curved laterally as it is now. This seems to be a newer development in this course of either having PA or AS. Either way, I am 50 and really dont want to do anymore operations to straighten out my spine and fear being confined to a wheelchair if it keeps on progressing like this ( the lateral lumbar curve) I DO NOT get any improvement with walking from this back pain. Most of the literature I have read about this disease is that the person gets relief from walking or excercise. This is not the case for me. I am getting severe muscle spasms in the L & T section of my spine which does not get any better from walking or excercise. I do not have the fusion of the sacroillitis joint either. So I question whether or not I have AS. It is driving me crazy also, the not knowing what is wrong with me.
I had such poor outcome from the neck fusion, that it has me extremely fearful of doing any more operations. I know the surgeons are going to want to cut me again and to insert rods to straighten up my lumbar now. I cant handle any more operations. I nearly bled to death from the posterior operation, and had to take 5 pints of blood.

Missie,

I'm in a rush so may not be able to respond as I should -- but I did want to add something. I don't think one has to have already had fusion to be diagnosed with AS (although I realize there is debate about this). I had symptoms off and on for years before being diagnosed about 2 years. My MRI that helped with my diagnosis showed edema or swelling at the SI joints and some erosion as well -- but I have no fusion to date. I do have two maternal uncles with AS with obvious fusion, and I have a brother with Reactive Arthritis. My symptoms of pain fit the AS profile to a T, and I am HLA-B27+ -- so even without the fusion, I feel certain that I have AS. They're are plenty of people here that have AS even with fusion but who do not have the gene marker -- so it is not a prerequisite for the disease.

I don't know if this is helpful or not -- but just wanted to add. Even though I totally agree with Ted about symptoms being more important than a label and the fact that many diseases may be parts of the same whole (hope I'm not too far off, Ted -- I admit to having only glanced at responses) which is a very Eastern approach that my friend and acupuncturist affirms -- like you, I rather like having a name for something because it gives me a handle for treatment, approach, etc. Naming something can be powerful and positive.

Best wishes. Paula