Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; immune system boosting dangers?

Hi all,

I read the post about echinae, and the danger mentioned there that boosting your immune system can get you into flare.

well the past month I have been doing this boosting, using supplements like NAC, alpha-lipoic-acid, glutathione and L-Glutamine, and i have some level of flare going on, more then in the past year and not reacting to diet, which is worrying.

At the moment i am attacking that with double dose naproxen, 6Xdose msm, and lots of rest, about to start some cycling to massage the lower back.

my point is: on one side i see everybody recommend boosting the immune system (using supplements) and on the other hand i see people warning about it.

on the 'recommend' track is see things like: vitamins, minerals, ginger
in the 'avoiding' track i see things like echinae, cats claw, ginseng

do people agree with this diversion in two tracks and where would you put the supplements i describe above: in the 'avoid' or in the 'recommend' track.

Arjan

Arjan,
Wish I could refer you to specific articles but this advice only comes from my memories of my readings. I think the minerals and supplements you mention are fine. However, it has always been my understanding that echinachea (sp) is to be avoided in autoimmune disease. The ginseng is stimulating and also can increase stress to the system by causing the release of adrenalin (AKA epinephrine, a kind of catecholamine). For this same reason I avoid caffeine. My iritis surfaced when I was: arising at 5 am, writing on my thesis till 8 am, driving to the ski hill (45min-1hr), skiing 5 hrs, driving back home, then heading to Boise to class (2 hr drive) and then returning home and in bed between 11pm-12pm as a regular routine. This was all made possible by ginseng and copious amounts of coffee, Diet Coke, and my illusions of invincibility. Or should I say delusions? It's difficult to determine our rest requirements when we're pumped up with caffeine and the likes of ginseng...
LindaG

Hi Arjan,

I have never taken echinae, cats claw or ginseng... so no personal knowledge. I do take several vitamin/mineral supplements and have not experienced any issues with my AS. They include Vit. E, C, B complex and calcium.

I also took ginger as a natural anti-inflamatory and it worked very well. However, it is a blood thinner and since I have had issues with bloody noses, I began to experience them if I took ginger too often.

Only other items I am taking currently is fish oil and some enzyme supplements.

Tim

Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it - Helen Keller

Although i don't see that taking Echinacea when actually having a cold, is a problem, i avoid actively stimulating my immune system. Ginger has so many medicinal pluses apart form its flavour and "zap" that i vary the amount a lot - taking it freely only when i have pain or inflammation.
My supplement regime is (in order of importance) for gut healing, anti-inflammatory, aiding digestion/assimilation and some broadly antibacterial. The only immune stimulation is either incidental or when the immune system is challenged by disease (colds/flu) or when everyone around me is getting colds or tummy bugs...
I am currently feeling about 95% having seen off a frustrating period of mild morning back pain. Even though not severe it should not have been there, so i examined my whole dietary intake. I stopped dairy (again) reduced almonds, chocolate, other treats (nougat) and am back to what i consider to be NSD normality for me - almost total success. I think the theobromine in chocolate was replacing my caffeine.

I'm interested in how you view supplementation Arjan, but i see the immune boosting as incidental and would not define the ones i take in your terms.
I eat lots of cabbage/sauerkraut, but...
I'm just starting L-glutamine - solely to heal my gut, not into weight-lifting or anything else...


Ted
proAS_KickAS

Hi Arjan,
I searched it back here on this forum (search on boosting) and I'm afraid never anyone recommended boosting the immune system. I saw only warnings among which this from Bilko The Wise:

_____________________________________________________________________

Arjan,

your strategy 3, boosting the immune system. AS is an autoimmune disease; if you boost the system couldn't things get even worse? If your defences go for the Kp with renewed vigour they might go for you with increased enthusiasm as well!

______________________________________________________________________

So supplements should be increasing your overall health and heightening the barrier in the gut so nothing comes through and nothing will be triggered but not heightening the immune and inflammational response. From the things you mention and on the basis what Mig said I think use of echinacea (without having a cold) should be avoided. From ginseng I don't know (just don't what it does) and cat's claw is an anti inflammatory so should be no problem. Ginger is also an anti inflammatory so should be ok (when not taken to much or taken together with other anti inflammatories) and vitamins and minerals can be useful especially since AS tends to deplete some.
Many strength to you in this more difficult time,
Gerard

"Walk gently, breathe peacefully, laugh hysterically." -Nelson Mandela-

Hi Ted

From one chocolate addict to another:

In reply to:

---

I stopped ...chocolate

---

Eeeeeeeekkkkkk! I am covering my eyes in horror!

Stephanie

Hi Arjan

Dang... lol
I wasn't sure what "Cats claw" was, so I did a little research. Then I accidently typed in as "Cats clawS"... and I got to know that's the name of Manufacturer of Fine Cat Toys Home.

Anyway. lol I dont believe I ever take echinae or cats claw. But I do eat ginseng ( both red ones and normal ones, drink with honey ) often, but I don't have a problem with it.

I am taking multi-vitamin plus additional vitamin C and E daily. My friend sent me a bottle of Glucosamine ( 180 tbs ). I may start to take it as well.

Ginger is nice too, although I am not a big fan of it. So when I boil gingers ( as to drink with honey ), I always put some cinnamons and/or dried dates, too, and boil them together. Easier to drink with better taste.

I am on NSD, but I haven't been doing well like you. Flare and such.
Hope you will feel better soon, Arjan !!!

Take good care
Jasmine

Thank you all for your replies,

i have the situation under control again, thanks to the befits of MSM, taking about 10-15 grams/day.

really remember this when you have an unexplainable flare, MSM can take this kind of non-diet-related flares down fluently.

What i think is going on is the following:
-my diet is fine
-my SI is (still) cracked up, frustrating my entire back mechanicaly
-this also provokes inflammation-response
-(maybe) my immune system is too strong enhancing this response

So now my path is:

swallow this MSM, to keep the inflammation down
exercise a lot (found some great new ones) this will also work beter with less swollen joints
get my back in order again and thus remove the inflammation-stimulus
then i can go down on the MSM again

In this context i am looking for a good address to buy the bulk MSM powder, 2 Kg

The prices vary a lot on the net and i wonder about the quality
also low shipping costs to europe are difficut to find ...

Anybody has any tips where to get the best MSM-bargain?

My sites:
http://www.msm.htmlplanet.com/
$15/Kilo with $18 shipping
This guy states he sells lignisul msm, USA made

http://www.msmforless.com/rich_powder.htm
also $14/kilo, but shipping costs $62

Arjan

Hi Arjan,I have been taking the alpha lipoic acid ,but I don't think that substance works like cats claw etc. it is a mega antioxidant and some scientists have said that it could play a major role in slowing the aging process through free radical scavenging.
The most important reason for me to take it ( along with acetyl carnitine) was, the papers appearing in some scientific journals, claiming how it could significantly protect collegen from destruction via free radical damage.
So I thought ligaments being collagen ,then maybe it could help.
regards ,Tim . I could bore you with my update if you would like the results?

Yes tim,

that's indeed the reason i was taking it as well.

I'll tell you what I am doing:
-quit the lipoic acid
-get my back in order, thus removing the inflammation-response-stimulation
-try again

i'd like to hear of your experiences as well

Arjan