Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Startch Diets New info

Hi Everyone,

I will try to keep this as non-medically termed as I can. Sorry its so long but I think that it needs it.

I have just completed a two week course at the Royal National Hospital for Rheumatic Diseases, which is world renouned for its reasearch and also treatment for rheumatic diseases such as AS and Arthristis. I have for some time been trying to cut down on my startch intake and, I must admit, have found it difficult. Leaving all my loves behind such as curry, chips and also Spag Bol. I have found that the reduction has helped some, but would like to put forward what I have learned while I was there.

There was Individual and also group sessions with dietitions, physios, Dr's, Ocupational Therapists and also Dr Callin himself, who is Vice President of NASS here in the UK, and also one of the world leaders in the study of AS.

For those that would like to know here is what I found, not entirely in their words but the general gist. I do not want to confuse with jargon.

A no startch diet is probably not a good thing for people who suffer from AS, or for that matter any Disease. The studies that they have conducted have discovered that Startch is obviously divided into two types, each type is found in our 'normal food sources', these are digestible and non-digestible startch. The findings are that the Bacteria, that some people think contribute to AS suffering, in the lower intestine thrive on startch is not debated, they do feed on startch. But the type of startch that reaches the lower intestine is non-digestable startch. This startch type does make up the 'product' that the 'bad' bacteria feed on. The problem is, if we want to reduce these bacteria then we have to cut out, or, reduce our startch intake. This theory backs up the findings and also the fact that a non startch diet is good for AS sufferers. There is of course a down side to this, as there is too everything in life, and its not good.

The downside is that if we cut out startch from our diet we do several things. The first is of course that we reduce the bacteria in the larger intestine that causes AS, but this also reduces the good bacteria that is there in the lower intestine also, this is not desputed by anyone. These bacteria also contribute to the final stage of digestion. Reducing these also reduces what we get out of what we eat. Namely energy, fluid and also vitamins, this is also not desputed. So to cut out both of the startch types in the lower intestine also means cutting it out from the upper intestine. This also kills startch dependant bacteria in the upper intestine that helps with the digestion of other food types, and it is this that is considered bad.

The reduction in the intake of such foods as spuds (potatoes), rice, pasta ect also reduces the intake of carbohydrates in the 'normal' diet, this can then also reduce energy levals and basic bodily stores. This, in the belief of the people at the hospital, is an overall bad thing as activity is considered a better option for overall health in AS sufferers.

I probably in my own opionion, will continue with a reduced leval of startch in my diet, but I will also try to make my diet a more balanced one. As we all know, we do not eat anything good for us before we start having problems, and afterwards we make changes that probably should have been made prior to us fealing bad. Diet is one that everyone can look at as it is something that is easily changed, an increase in fruit here a decrease in Sausage egg and chips there, all goes to improve how we feal. BUt I know believe that it is good to have a reduction in the startch that we intake, but also that our startch intake would probably be greatly reduced anyway in a normal balanced diet. So for me I will just be having a normal good balanced diet from now on.

Now it is all up to you, what ever you feal better with as long as you are having a normal active life then that is all anyone can ask.

Dave

from my own experience, i can say that the nsd reduces bacterial concentrations in the gut across the board. right when i started the nsd, i tested positive for very high levels of the probiotic ("good") bacteria in my bowels. after several months on the strict nsd, a retest revealed that the probiotic bacteria levels dropped significantly, to almost zero. i was not experiementing with anything else that could reduce bacteria at the time (ie drugs etc) with the exception of the diet.

Thanks Dave, it's great that some of us have opportunities to mix it with the masters. Hope what you learned helps you in your diet.

The energy thing is an obvious one when it effects people so no doubt they listen too their bodies and adjust accordingly. I pay particular attention to glycolisis because that is how our body cells gets their food. It is a complex cycle (see attachment) and many parts where it can break down so we have to fill in a few blanks.
I remember vividly when the old adage "We are what we eat" was changed to
"We are what we DIGEST" and let's face it we all have different enzymes (and quantities of them), varying stomach acidity and presence or absence of different bacteria and yeasts.! When i eat carbohydrates i go to sleep, when i eat apples i bounce all over the place!

I think that our bodies are actually clever enough to know what they need and we can often crave things that we have absolutely no way of digesting! (why we have the defficiency!) Have you ever done a Zinc defficiency test? Why we crave other things like chocolates and Mars Bars are a little more complex - psychologically..............not carbohydologically
When i see a blueberry muffin it is the fruit and sugar and fat that i crave - i have no craving for wheat flour and glutenTo me we all do seem to be making informed decisions about what we eat, what we exclude and how we go about making up any shortfalls - John's supplement regime would keep him alive with no food at all!

Ted
proAS_Kicker

"An apple a day keeps the Rheumy away"
Anonymous
(unregistered)

Dave,

there is one question I would like to put to Andrei Calin and other rheumies who are reluctant to advocate a low starch diet. How did the human species evolve and thrive as hunter gatherers until the agricultural revolution about 6000 years ago began to introduce significant amounts of starch into our diets? How have the Inuit, Eskimos and other circumpolar communities survived without grain, spuds etc? The diet reduces the number of micro-organisms in the gut, but the levels remain adequate.

After 6 years on the diet my blood tests, kidney and liver function tests, all give good results. If Calin is genuinely interested I'm sure he would be allowed to see the files of those of us who were Ebringer's patients. It was a research clinic and we all agreed that our data could be made available for research. There is a long history of controversy and debate surrounding the klebs / molecular mimicry theory and I believe it will be down to the younger generation of rheumies who do not carry all this baggage of old arguments to progress things.

They also serve who have to use a straw

Edited by bilko on 10/09/02 04:56 AM (server time).

Dave,

Thanks for sharing the information. It takes courage to offer scientific information in this forum rather than use psychics, new age rhetoric, and personal attacks. I would imagine that someone who has committed their career to helping people with this awful disease, like Professor Ebringer, might care about people, but I could be wrong.

Nevertheless, I think there could be something to a low carbohydrate or low calorie diet to treat AS. I think that if there were a study of these low carbohydrate dieters (London, SCD, etc.) you would find that they are "sneaking" or "sinning," i.e. eating enough carbs so that the body gets what it needs, and they generally are reducing the amount of carbohydrates they eat and feel better. I don't know whether it was here or somewhere else; someone said that dietary intervention is difficult thing to study. Still it might be easier than actually studying an Inuit population or building a time machine.

Best regards,

jcwinnie

Edited by jcwinnie on 10/10/02 10:29 AM (server time).

Postscript

This post could go in Alternatives forum -- Probioctics discussion, or elsewhere in this forum when the pros and cons of probiotics have been discussed. Since Dave's thoughtful post mentioned a relationship between diet and bacteria, I will post here this quote taken from a recent news article which was posted to another web site.

... Research now indicates that the 400 species of bacteria living in trillions in each human colon have a big influence on our health. Professor Fergus Shanahan, of Cork University Hospital, says: "We have more bacterial than human cells in our bodies."

In normal circumstances these microbes are well behaved, helping intestinal function, producing vitamins and breaking down carcinogens. "We need bacteria for defence, to prime and stimulate our immune system," says Shanahan, who is a leading researcher of probiotics. "Animals raised in germ-free conditions have a very blunted immune response, poorly developed digestive enzymes and are more susceptible to harmful infections, a whole range of abnormalities that are restored to normal when you recolonise them with bacteria."

Genetic susceptibility, diet and environmental factors may upset this balance and trigger the abnormal reactions ... in some people.

Geesh! A world-renoun medical professor and he misspells defense!

Hi,

i'd like to report here that after 4 months of '20% more problems then usual' i did an apple fast 2 weeks ago, and afer that i resumed eating with a total NO-CARB diet.

no starch
no sugar, hardly any fruit as well
no fos

But,
medium high protein
high saturated fat (omega 3 also)
and leafy veggies of course

I have had a wonderful body since two weeks, no pain whatsoever (10% less problems then usual, except for my RSI-neck-problems who are not affected by any diet. I handle these with 'good-old' fysio-exercercise (with results by the way))

Also i had to supplement MCT oil before to prevent psoriasis. MCT-oil works on the liver.
Not needed anymore, i contribute this to the liver cleansing efect of the the apple fast.

Also energy-levels are very good, so I assume I have finally turned my metabolism around from sugar-burning to fat-burning. I think this is a good thing, as i now carry my extra-energy with me in the form of body-fat, so i do not have to eat my own muscles when the food runs out. Before i was unable to use this bodyfat as my body was not on fat metabolism. (protein will eventually be burned in the sugar-metabolism)

->I experienced that turning your body to fat metabolism is a drastic turnaround which takes TIME (6 monts at least). This is also documented information at this subsite of newtreatments.org

Also from supplementing probiotics with bad results, and other intestinal life forms (eg miso), with bad results, I conclude that it's every micro-organism that can trigger my AS-reaction, not only Kp. My immune system has formed a 'bad' habit.

So to make my reply:: my experiences contradict with the theoretical findings of this insitute, as seems to be the (continuing) story of my AS.

some more reasons to decrease carb-intake is here

Those research guys will not deliver me a solution, and i recommend everybody to try out themselves if these guys are right.

Regards,

Arjan

The argument that the LSD must be wholesome because primitive man ate little or no starch for millions of years seems to me not a good one. How do you know he was healthy?

Recent research has established that Neanderthals ate virtually nothing but meat. I don't think anyone would suggest this means we should follow suit. It's probably because they didn't eat their greens that they died out.

All right, so primitive man survived long enough to spawn us. Lots of people today on various kinds of unhealthy diet live long enough to produce healthy offspring.

Paul Diss-Holland

Are you suggesting that primitive man did not eat according to some preconceived design made by a creator? If we are heading to a discussion between creationism versus Darwinism we will all sound like babbling monkeys and nothing will be learnt.

They also serve who have to use a straw

I have never said that I was on a low carb diet. I eat plenty of fruit and veggies. I have just cut out bread and rice and pasta, etc. And any doctor will tell you that plenty of fruit and vegetables is the way to go.......just for good health, never mind AS. I am trying to follow the wisdom of Jack LaLanne, who said......"If man made it, don't eat it."

I have been on the diet about two months now and have seen a huge improvement. Will I cheat? I'm sure I will eventually. Is there some starch in my diet? Probably in small amounts. I think that the important thing is that because of my porphyria I can not take drugs, and if I can get some pain relief from a diet I will continue to do so. It is a personal decision. A new friend of mine didn't get relief from NSD at all. We are all different.