Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group Helicobacter Pylori - Stomach Acid, Crohn's, RA

Just off on a tangent after reading SJLC's link about gluten that also had other interesting info about H.Pylori in it.

"There are a few different ways to reduce your stomach's acidity level. The most straightforward is to take an antacid, or any number of drugs that lower stomach acidity. But can we do it naturally? Sure, all it takes is a little Helicobacter pylori infection! Luckily, most people already have one. - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/gluten

"More than 50% of the world's population harbour H. pylori in their upper gastrointestinal tract. Over 80% of individuals infected with the bacterium are asymptomatic." - Wikipedia

"Treating an asymptomatic H. pylori infection with antibiotics increases stomach acidity, suggesting that H. pylori is capable of suppressing the secretion of stomach acid. In another study, eradicating H. pylori with antibiotics improved nearly all patients suffering from hypochlorhydria (insufficient stomach acid)." - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/gluten

What I found personally interesting because I have a casein allergy were the comments that "Decreased stomach acid also causes malabsorption of protein, B12, iron and perhaps other nutrients. It allows undigested protein to travel into the small intestine. This could potentially be very important. For example, many people are allergic to the casein in milk. It's one of the two most common alleriges, along with gluten. Both casein and gluten are proteins. A normally functioning stomach at the proper pH should completely digest casein. You can't be allergic to casein if there's none around." - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/gluten

"The standard first-line therapy is a one week triple therapy consisting of a proton pump inhibitor such as omeprazole and the antibiotics clarithromycin and amoxicillin.[41] Variations of the triple therapy have been developed over the years, such as using a different proton pump inhibitor, as with pantoprazole or rabeprazole, or replacing amoxicillin with metronidazole for people who are allergic to penicillin." - Wikipedia

So what happened to patients with Crohn's and RA who underwent antibiotic therapy for H.Pylori?

"Drug therapies used to fight the ulcer-causing bacteria Helicobacter Pylori may help treat Crohn's disease. Researchers recently reported that "after treatment [with antibiotics against H. Pylori], clinical remission [of Crohn's disease] was achieved in all patients", regardless of the type of therapy received. At the same time, H. Pylori infection was eradicated in 28 of the 30 infected patients. "What this shows is that by eradicating H. Pylori infection... we achieved a remission of Crohn's disease," Dr. Mantzaris explained. The authors stress that their findings do not mean that H. Pylori causes Crohn's disease. But it does raise the issue of "whether regimens aimed at eradicating H. Pylori in infected patients with Crohn's disease may also achieve remission of Crohn's disease." - - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...ns-disease.aspx & http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C361305.html

Obviously if it achieved remission in "all" Crohn's patients then it would now be the standard treatment for Crohn's so I'm taking this study with a grain of salt. But it is still interesting as "Several papers support an infectious cause for ankylosing spondylitis. People with ankylosing spondylitis are more likely to have genital (20) or intestinal symptoms (19) or infections with mycoplasma, chlamydia and ureaplasma (1). Virtually all patients have ulcers or changes in their gut similar to those seen in Crohn's disease (2,20,21,22)." - http://www.drmirkin.com/joints/j103.htm

"Eradication of Helicobacter pylori may reduce disease severity in rheumatoid arthritis. Our data suggest that H. pylori infection is implicated in the pathogenesis of rheumatoid arthritis, in that its eradication may induce a significant improvement of disease activity over 24 months. H. pylori eradication seems to be advantageous in infected rheumatoid arthritis patients, but controlled studies are needed." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12144579

An interesting note: One of the antibiotics used as part of triple therapy - metronidazole (Flagyl) - "has been shown to reverse the NSAID induced chronic state of hyper-permeability associated with inflammation, which can not be reversed by misoprosterol but which is both prevented and reversed by the administration of the antibiotic, metronidazole [83, 86]." - http://mdheal.org/leakygut.htm

Conclusion: An asymptomatic H.Pylori infection could be worthy of investigation for AS patients, particularly those who suffer from acid reflux, ulcers or food allergies. H.Pylori can reduce stomach acid which can contribute to poor digestion, leading to food allergy and bacterial dysbiosis in the small intestine. The treatment is simple and relatively low risk involving antibiotics and a proton-pump inhibitor. The treatment has a 97% success rate at eliminating H.Pylori (http://gut.bmj.com/content/37/4/477.abstract) with a 2% reinfection rate (http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bm...crobial_therapy). As well as eliminating H.Pylori and thereby improving stomach acid and digestion, the treatment may also help get rid of other unknown infections or parasites that could be contributing to the disease. If metronidazole is used as one of the antibiotics then there is also the benefit of potentially reducing NSAID induced gut inflammation and permeability. H.Pylori treatment has been shown to reduce symptoms in both Crohn's and RA either through directly eliminating H.Pylori or through other unknown mechanisms.

Great stuff jroc:

We have been fortunate to have received a donation from the genuine hero of the H. pylori-stomach ulcer connection so just maybe we're onto something.

I really like Flagyl and other antibiotics for AS!

HEALTH,
John

Hi,

Last year I tried a round of metronidazole and ciprofloxacin. Actually 2 2 week rounds. I had nothing but a waterway between me and the toilet. It didn't achieve nearly what I had hoped.

Does anyone have a reason why this wouldn't work? I have a DX of AS and Chrons- and the scope picked up ulcerations in my intestines at the time.

In the Crohn's trial I mentioned it says they received "antibiotic therapy for 10 weeks" which is much longer than the usual H.Pylori treatment of 7 - 10 days. It does not say which specific antibiotics were used or whether they also used a PPI. It might pay to try and find a copy of the actual study to get the details. I've tried on pubmed but couldn't find anything.

Very very interesting.... Thanks for posting.

Facinating - what a read. Very exciting. Might well be onto summat here - as it seems to tie in. will see IF I can locate original article, but expecting a house guest and also have to go house sit for someone, soooooo, in a bit of a time frame fix for 'looking'. (Wonder if Bleeker (Nancy) would/could try to hunt this one up...)

jroc - can you link us back to the beginning of this please. WHAT link are we looking at to get to the original paper?

You've given a myriad of links, but need a singleton to pursue first. AA(Have asked Nancy (Bleeker if she can help) but we need a strong link to go searching for the original (vroom----->>>>> expecting a house guest, have to go house sit for a chum (dogs, horses, sheep, cat, chickens - yikes!) and and am hitting the buffers here...eeeekkkk)

Hey, Adam:

Both Flagyl and Cipro can be very harsh, and Cipro in particular can strip away the mucosa--the gut lining because this is a sort of knitted together matrix of fiber, food, and good and bad bacteria.

So if Cipro is on one hand killing our nemesis bacterium but on the other exposing more lesions, making them more active, the net result might be zero or even an increase in symptoms.

And some people react badly to Flagyl, also, especially giving them the trots. They have been prescribed at the same time, but should probably not be taken that way initially. There are many reasons to take Flagyl, sometimes due to taking regular antibiotics (to perhaps avoid C. difficile overgrowth).

The worst situation for anyone with AS is to have too much liquid in the colon (unless put there on purpose); this can greatly increase the potential for transmission of germs through the permeable gut.

Although I have used Cipro quite a bit, I respect its killing power, and without Cipro I believe that I would not be able to do a modified LSD, but still require stricter NSD, to control my symptoms.

Most of the time, when I require antibiotics now, I take tetracycline. These times are more and more rare and I almost do not rely upon any antibiotic agent anymore.

I believe that K. pneumoniae establish massive colonies outside the intestinal tract, and keep us awash in a flux of AS-genic triggers (dead and separated bacteria) that diet has no control over. So, perhaps Your experiences are not for naught, and I hope that Your AS has settled down quite a bit.

Although I have experimented with Rifaximin, I have not noticed the same level of benefit from it as from tetracycline; perhaps it is a dosing issue since this drug is not absorbed, although I do not feel safe increasing the dosage too much.

HEALTH,
John

Thank You John,

I tried LDN since November and opened up my diet during Christmas. That did not work. 2 months later I'm in a flare. I've been almost 2 months back on the NSD and I am currently 100% immobile due to pain. I tried to get up this morning, made it to my bedroom door and had to turn back before the pain knocked out my nervous system.

I'm in bed and can't wait till I feel appropriate enough to make it to the bathroom.

TWO MONTHS, Adam--

That's just too long! I would fast or do fruit monodiet if in a flare longer than a few days anymore.

This is serious, especially if You are still being very strict. Christmas season was a long time ago, and we should not be punished for the duration for falling off the wagon.

I can recommend supplementation if still bowel issues, but if these persist, there is certainly nothing wrong seeking professional opinions and help. It could be more complicated that a typical case of NSD not doing what it should by when it usually does--the antibiotics could have really done some kind of dysbiosis number that needs to be addressed with more conventional medicines or methods.

Hope that You regain health very soon,
John