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Joined: Mar 2008
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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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I agree with both Kat & Jay for pointing out some of the different scenarios, they all strike me as possible

So I ask:

which is a greater crime/tragedy

1. A person receiving free health care, the kind of person we'd all likely agree that doesn't morally deserve it, drinks alcohol all day, doesn't look for work, does nothing to change things, etc

or:

2. A person who wants to improve themselves, ready to do so, ready to make a contribution, but needs medical attention, but can't afford it, may never get functional without it, and possibly even die because of their illness?


Dow
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Warrior_AS_Kicker
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I need to add that I believe that healthcare should not be yoked to any means of "work" (or lack there of) that someone puts in to society. Who is righteous enough to judge what work is more important than another? To me fulfilling a good purpose that has no dollar value is far more important than the billions of paper pieces with faces on them are. Being cared by someone who knows how to do so fits in there too. Synergy.

I know film drivers who drive their Mercedes to my work, pick up one of our vehicles, drive it to the set and sit around all day getting fat on craft services (trust me they tell me this). You don't even need an 'education'. They do way less work than the other drivers that we personally employ and make WAY more money. Wait- film: the most important work in the world, never mind. I think we're doing Hulk 2 in the near future...

Right now MONEY is dictating who gets healthcare, and last I checked MONEY is a poor poor poor (I'm not sure I can say it enough) judge of character.

By the way, tax payers, shouldn't you be more frustrated that a large portion of your taxes go to pay off a fake debt that was concocted out of thin air? That's entire lifetimes of 'work' and 'servitude' going to a fake number that doesn't really even exist. All while you could be getting healthcare. But that's the system we live in. Increasing national debts made out of money that doesn't even exist and the creditors telling us which programs to cut (or hand over) in order to pay them their interest back. Otherwise, "we'll make your national "Fico" score look bad to the ROW and your 'currency' or value of means in which you trade, will go into the garbage."


Last edited by moosekick; 12/01/09 07:17 AM.

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Silver_AS_Kicker
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I don't see anything as a right where one individual is forced to relinquish something to support another individual. I don't directly disagree with you regarding the comment about occupation. The thing I disagree with is that if you are cognizant of how the system (as unfair or broken as each of us chooses to see it) works, and yet you choose to pursue undertakings that will not meet needs for the health insurance you'd like to have, enable you to pay for health insurance, or allow you to pay for basic health care needs (e.g. routine doctors visits on the premise of preventative care). I do see the need, as I've stated previously, for health insurance reform in this country. The real issues with me are how extensive that reform should be and how it should be funded.

I agree that these issues are always not black and white. I mentioned that in my response to your toilet toggle/feed your child example. Are there situations where a woman has multiple children with a man who turns out to be a good for nothing bum after all the children have been conceived or born? Definitely. There are also situations where the woman has one child and realizes that she should have nothing to do with that man going forward yet bears additional children with him anyway. Also, it is resoundingly possible that a woman is somehow trapped, yet it's also possible that she is able to juggle the feat of employment and supporting her child while doing without a male in the household. This seems to be an increasingly advocated idea here in the States and it's a shame. A little bit the problem for those without education is that there is increasingly a dearth of entry-level jobs (especially those that allow the individuals to advance) available as the U.S. has hemorrhaged these types of positions in the past few decades. Also though, on the flip side, if the woman has post-secondary education, she has an extremely good chance of finding a gainful position in the professional workforce with benefits (possibly including daycare). Should the children suffer? Absolutely not. As mentioned there are programs to help women and children in need (WIC). There's also healthcare program for children (SCHIP) where needed.

I don't recall ever passing judgment on the Canadian system. I did opine that I wasn't sure if a similar system was appropriate for the United States. That isn't for me to decide however. The fact that no-one with pre-existing illness is denied is noble indeed. I mentioned that was one of the measure I'd like to see with health insurance reform in the United States. Alongside that, I'd like to see caps placed on premiums for policies underwritten for those with pre-existing illness. What I don't want to see is another entitlement program. There's no way we can afford that. I recently read or heard something to the fact that the true amount by which Social Security and Medicare is underfunded is 106 TRILLION dollars. Social Security is a great idea in theory. However, when the pols raid the funds intended for it and leave a bunch of I.O.U.s then borrow funds from China and Japan to cover the outlays, that is not sustainable. When we wage illegal wars partially or in full for the benefit of other nations at an enormous cost to human life and our nation's fiscal well-being, that is not sustainable. What are we going to do? Devalue our currency? Default on the debt? Give China the State of Alaska? The State of California? This is why I can't foresee (from the fiscal argument) the U.S. Government administering a national health program. Then there's the other concern(s) associated with the U.S. Government playing insurer, many of which have been touched on in previous posts.


Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson
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Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin
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Oh, Jay, I wasn't slamming you with my mention of the Canadian system. More like I was trying to commiserate/sympathize in a way with you being denied because of your AS. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

I guess my position comes from a 'needs of the many' point of view (thank you Gene Roddenberry). I don't think we should be forced to put all of our income into a general pool, but that those of us with more should have no problem helping those of us with less.

The opposite side of the occupation 'coin' could come down to why should someone be forced to do something which they find neither fulfilling nor enjoyable because of the way the system works. We could end up with a sort of '1984' world, where everything must be as the government says - culture determined by what is politically correct??? Oceania lives. wink

Warm hugs,


Kat

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.
"Strictly Ballroom"

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Silver_AS_Kicker
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Silver_AS_Kicker
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Quote:
I need to add that I believe that healthcare should not be yoked to any means of "work" (or lack there of) that someone puts in to society. Who is righteous enough to judge what work is more important than another?


You don't see a problem where everybody wants but no one is there to do to enable the want? I don't think anyone is judging what an individual chooses to do with their life. Rather, it is a statement that individuals shouldn't expect a segment of society to support them while they pursue their, possibly, unfruitful endeavors.

Quote:
Right now MONEY is dictating who gets healthcare, and last I checked MONEY is a poor poor poor (I'm not sure I can say it enough) judge of character.


I don't see that changing under any government sponsored/run health insurance program. It will be subject to budgetary constraints and will suffer cutbacks, contrary to what the pols might promise. Heck just look at Social Security and the fact there are no cost-of-living increases in the upcoming year. That's odd, there's still inflation contrary to what the government and their numbers tell you. Oh...I forgot...their inflation numbers don't include food or energy. Why, that sounds like a tax right there.

Also, agreed, money is a poor judge of character. Should we go back to bartering? That's why I, for example, judge people on the quality of their character, not on what material possessions they may or may not have.

Also, it is my belief a large portion of those who lead others to believe they have money have nothing but a fat credit line, and therefore lots of debt. Many with money don't flaunt it. They also are fairly charitable.

Quote:
By the way, tax payers, shouldn't you be more frustrated that a large portion of your taxes go to pay off a fake debt that was concocted out of thin air? That's entire lifetimes of 'work' and 'servitude' going to a fake number that doesn't really even exist. All while you could be getting healthcare. But that's the system we live in. Increasing national debts made out of money that doesn't even exist and the creditors telling us which programs to cut (or hand over) in order to pay them their interest back. Otherwise, "we'll make your national "Fico" score look bad to the ROW and your 'currency' or value of means in which you trade, will go into the garbage."


I don't understand the statement about the "fake debt concocted out of thin air". I'm not challenging the statement per se, I'm just trying to understand what you mean. I also don't understand the "fake number that doesn't really even exist." passage either. Please help me understand. Yes, fiat "paper" money is nothing but a sham. Pretty soon not worth the paper it's printed on if not already the case. The creditors in the case of the nation are primarily other nations (China and Japan are our largest creditors); it is up to the pols to manage the finances, and they do a lousy job. Yes, the idea of credit-worthiness is somewhat silly, but other nations, if they are to purchase debt, need some measure(s) of another nation's ability to service that debt. I don't necessarily agree with these principals/ideas, but it is currently how the system operates. Until change can be effected, well, it looks like we deal...

Perhaps we should go back to bartering.


Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson
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Warrior_AS_Kicker
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Sorry, I was up way too late last night with insomnia, and in a highly philosophical mood. I still feel wierd from it!

The fractional reserve systems allows banks to take an IOU (for example, print up $1 million in paper) from, in your case the Fed (private group of people), and then dish out loans that are somewhere around 10 to 1 compared to what they actually have (10 million). Then charge interest. It is not money, its just a digit.

Proverbs 22:7 - The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender.

Since it really is not money, just a digit, that's where I get the "fake" from. In Canada there was a time where there was no reserve ratio. They could just make up numbers and charge interest on them. I think it is currently is 7 to 1. Its work in exchange for a digit.

If the fed just printed the 700 billion, they must also know that a couple years later comes hyperinflation...

Last edited by moosekick; 12/01/09 09:21 PM.

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Diamond_AS_Kicker
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I am very sad that my choice to be a MOTHER has put me into the category of 'not-deserving-because-I-didn't-pull-my-financial-weight'. I am very sad our society has caused women to have to choose work over the non-paying job of raising their children for the sole purpose of receiving health benefits. I know many women who work only for the benefits because their husband's job has no benefits. Their paycheck goes towards paying the daycare.

I do not find the obligation to work at a job you are not gifted/called to as being a productive part of society. Working where you are not 'satisfied' only causes other problems.

I am sad to see my husband suffer because he is working a job that does not fulfill him. When he was unemployed for 8 months, he was a new man, free from those bondages of society, happily looking for a job that suited him. Now that he's back to work at his former employer (jobs are scarce in MI), I do not know him any longer. My 'job' right now is to BE a mother. I've worked here & there, but found no satisfaction because I am SUPPOSED to be a mother right now.

Our world is filled with misery because of these 'obligations'. How many of us are treated by doctors/specialists that don't like being a doctor or that is not their calling? Many are doctors because of the $$ and status that goes with it. They are HORRIBLE caregivers and actually cause a LOT of misery! I'm not saying this would allow people to do nothing... as I believe that 99% of people would do SOMETHING if given a real choice to be productive in their talent/giftings.

I know society doesn't allow for any of this to happen, but that is my dream world... My brain isn't fully explaining itself right now!

<<<<< another note>>>>>

Too bad the health care industry has priced care out of reach of most of us. My husband has an injured arm, it looks to be cracked or a torn ligament/tendon. He can hardly move it:

His choices:

~ use the free govt VA care... which means call today, wait for an appt that may be a month later.

~ go to our civilian doc, pay $95 for initial visit, pay for x-rays ($45+), pay $90 for a follow up doc visit and miss many hours of work. She does not take insurance.

~ go to an accute care clinic that may or may not take our insurance.

I don't know. I just wish the doctors wouldn't charge so much money for basic care. I wish there would be a cap on those fees. Maybe if the colleges were to lower their costs, people wouldn't have such debt from school to pay off.

There's no reason a doc should get paid $95 for a 1/2 hour visit! Does it really have to cost $270 to drain a small abcess? or $32 to draw a vial of blood? or $40 to get a shot of antibiotics? And honestly, does it REALLY need to cost $2000 a month for my daughter's growth hormone shots? Those prices, I feel, are over-inflated.

Why? because society has a standard of living that won't budge. Dr's have to keep their standard up, same as insurance companies, bankers, etc. Those that are at the top of the consumer food chain easily take advantage of the people on the bottom because there are more of us to feed 'them'. We are caught btwn a rock and a hard place and we lose every time.

Sadly, to eat healthy is very expensive. So we eat crappy food (Mac & cheese & hotdogs) which cause illness and disease, which needs a dr care, which takes up a lot of money, which takes away from healthier food/lifestyles, etc, etc, etc....

I do not believe in total gov't run healthcare (I participate in several forms of it and there's always a catch somewhere which makes me worried). I do like the option that we have for our daughter called children's special health care which is for middle income families for their child/ren with specific health problems that need a specialist's care. Nephrologist, neurologist, endocrinologist, etc. THAT, I am thankful for, although I am 'forced' into therapies I am not comfortable with.

I do not believe that I should have to pay for other's health problems. I have enough to care for in my own family!

well, those are my rambling thoughts on this no-win situation.

Maybe there will arise better options than raising our taxes even more to pay for something nobody can afford. Maybe the whole system has to be broken apart and start anew, starting with the expense of colleges......


~ Trudi: homeschooling mom to 6: 16,14,11,9,7, 6 mos


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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Originally Posted By: Jaybird
I recently read or heard something to the fact that the true amount by which Social Security and Medicare is underfunded is 106 TRILLION dollars. Social Security is a great idea in theory. However, when the pols raid the funds intended for it and leave a bunch of I.O.U.s then borrow funds from China and Japan to cover the outlays, that is not sustainable. When we wage illegal wars partially or in full for the benefit of other nations at an enormous cost to human life and our nation's fiscal well-being, that is not sustainable. What are we going to do? Devalue our currency? Default on the debt? Give China the State of Alaska? The State of California? This is why I can't foresee (from the fiscal argument) the U.S. Government administering a national health program. Then there's the other concern(s) associated with the U.S. Government playing insurer, many of which have been touched on in previous posts.


I see this argument a lot, that Social Security is underfunded, and therefore it makes no sense to take on additional cost

I agree that the war in Iraq was a total disaster, and perhaps the 30,000 troops that were scheduled tonight for deployment to Afghanistan will prove likewise, but I don't think those kind of mistakes should mean we shouldn't do the right thing in regards to health care!!

My opinion is that a lot of people are just being short-sighted in regards to the benefits that this nation would get from improving the level of health in this country-to me there is no doubt that it would do that, only question is to what degree-not only from productivity, reducing costs of goods & services, manufacturing, auto-workers, things we have largely lost to other countries, etc. Then also consider that it will help people of working age, compared to Medicare, which only helps senior citizens..

and I feel that my earlier point is getting lost in the sauce here, that the most important priority, the number one thing, the big cheese:

is to lower the TOTAL price of health care, so that for instance, we are not paying more for the same services that other countries do, we shouldn't be paying two, three, or twenty times as much for the very same drugs actually produced in this country!

that has to be done by breaking the monopoly, or oligopoly if you prefer, that the industry has over us, by ideally creating a competition to it, or less ideally, legislation that is created to create a better balance. But either way, start by repealing the current antiquated laws that give them an unfair advantage!


Dow
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Silver_AS_Kicker
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Quote:
My opinion is that a lot of people are just being short-sighted in regards to the benefits that this nation would get from improving the level of health in this country


I concur. The big hang up seems to be how to do that. Both sides are so extreme that one side does nothing for years then bitches about what is being done, while the other side offers a wholesale nationalization of the whole system scaring the daylights out of significant portion of citizens (e.g. elderly, those with satisfactory existing coverage, some doctors, those in favor of limited government). This divide alone is enough to make people ill.

Quote:
is to lower the TOTAL price of health care


The price or the cost? Lower the price and the insurers, drug manufacturers, device makers, make it up in volume, therefore resulting in a minimally modified overall cost? We shouldn't be paying be paying multiple times for same drugs that other countries buy at "wholesale" prices. There will be, at some point in time, some economic implication of us not subsidizing the drug companies (for example) though. Our costs might drop (in relation to what they once were), but it may raise the prices in other countries to put them on par with a newly revised U.S. system. Another scenario is that development (R&D) slows down. Maybe not immediately, maybe not within three years, but at some time in the future. The drug companies no longer see fit to budget the same amounts for R&D now that their cash cow market (U.S.) is no longer subsidizing their fat profits, yet they want to try and maintain their profit margins to keep shareholders satisfied. Is it right? No. I doubt that they care though. I'm sure there are many other scenarios too, but these are two that oft have crossed my mind.


Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,233
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Undoubtedly, that is the argument that the drug companies will make, that with less profit, they will claim that they will have to lower R&D

However, if they don't do the research and development, they won't come up with the next breakthrough drug, nothing to sell, so they might think twice about cutting those costs, look elsewhere, start with those outrageous CEO's salaries instead? That is the way fair competition should work

I heard someone recently make the point that significant medical research is done in State & government universities, funded by taxpayers, who don't benefit financially from that research. Instead it is the pharmaceutical companies that market the drugs based on that research that get ALL the profit. Hmm..


Dow
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