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Joined: Mar 2008
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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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good thoughts and insights!

Not sure what you mean by America is not a free market though

My opinion is that capitalism is basically a good concept, but it doesn't work if it is completely free, there has to be some restrictions and they have to be enforced-

Jay brought up the classic example, the oil companies that would have created an unstoppable monopoly if they hadn't been reigned in

I remember being told the story of how J. Paul Getty almost pulled that off. He would move into a town, set up a gas station, sell the gas for a lower price than the other gas stations in town, actually lower than the price that he was paying for it, so he'd be losing money for a while. Then soon he would soon destroy the competition, the other gas station would lose all their business, be forced to shut down, and Getty would then be the only place in town to buy gas- at which point he would raise the price of gas, higher than before, and take his profits!

Rinse and repeat

That's the kind of thing that we need the anti-trust laws for


Dow
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Silver_AS_Kicker
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I had looked into this Singapore model a while ago. I had to refresh my knowledge (memory) of how it works. A significant portion is funded through Health Savings Accounts (MediSave). It's my perception that individuals here that want government health insurance are wanting a single tier type system where they are burdened with basically no cost (wanting all these supposedly rich people to pay for it).

Also, Singapore has a population similar to that of the state of Wisconsin. I don't know if such a model, this Tri-Setup (MediSave and the other two), would be effective here. However, it is something that should definitely be considered by the folks writing this legislation. It is perceived as a very unique system and should be seriously considered.

One of my biggest concerns with this whole health care plan is that it is being pushed through at light speed when I'm not sure if anybody has really taken the time to develop an effective plan or thought through the implications of this legislation. Then if/when some portion of it sours, you'll hear people call it "The Law of Unintended Consequences" Bull! It's because someone didn't take time to stop and think things through.


Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson
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Hi.

Quote:

A situation helped by passing new laws and regulations to limit this, but unfortunately as we have talked about, the health care industry has the opposite, the McCarren-Ferguson act makes them EXEMPT from current anti-trust laws!




If this is the problem, I don't understand why the legislators just don't alter this legislation. Why create sweeping reform, and a potentially bigger headache and burden for this country, when this problem may have a more straightforward solution?

Quote:

The McCarran-Ferguson Act does not prevent the federal government from regulating the insurance industry. It provides only that states have broad authority to regulate the insurance industry unless the federal government enacts legislation specifically intended to regulate insurance and to displace state law.




McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945

It appears the feds could make changes, but for whatever reason they choose not to. It would be hard for me to believe, based on what I have read in recent months, that the states want (and might have a significant financial burden) federally mandated insurance. Perhaps some states are for it, but there are others that are against it. I just struggle to see why the wheel must be reinvented if changing this one piece of legislation is the golden ticket to getting health insurers in line.

I'm going to guess the answer lies somewhere with the IRS.


Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson
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Sounds like Walmart liked that strategy.


Timo
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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Quote:

If this is the problem, I don't understand why the legislators just don't alter this legislation. Why create sweeping reform, and a potentially bigger headache and burden for this country, when this problem may have a more straightforward solution?




Oh, they have tried numerous times, but so far it has always been shot down (the war between the forces we have been discussing)

but they are still efforts, right at this time, to repeal portions of it, led by Senator Chuck Schumer and Patrick Leahey:

efforts to repeal a portion of the McCarran-Feguson Act

But even if by some miracle this time it was successful, it's just the tip of the iceberg..


Dow
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Dow Offline
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Quote:

t appears the feds could make changes, but for whatever reason they choose not to. It would be hard for me to believe, based on what I have read in recent months, that the states want (and might have a significant financial burden) federally mandated insurance. Perhaps some states are for it, but there are others that are against it. I just struggle to see why the wheel must be reinvented if changing this one piece of legislation is the golden ticket to getting health insurers in line.




regarding state-by-state decisions-yesterday's developments were interesting indeed, now the bill may have include the ability for individual states to "opt-out" of the public option

which strikes me as a good thing, assuming sweeping changes are too high a hurdle to accomplish, and if the bill couldn't get passed any other way

At least that way, when years from now, we see the results of what happens in the states that go for it and the states that don't, would yield some very revealing comparative data


Dow
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SENSational_AS_Kicker
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SENSational_AS_Kicker
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Home Depot too


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Warrior_AS_Kicker
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Warrior_AS_Kicker
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-Well put Uno

-As far as I remember from Economics in university: Price goes down, demand goes up, 100% of the time. So when you get into the free category, it is impossible that there would not be new buildings built and new jobs. 100% of the time. People still break bones in soccer matches and the driving schools didn't get better, and people still die so preventative care won't change the levels of activity in a hospital. Free care would probably streamline the type of activity there further becoming more efficient at the types of patients it gets.

-Another thing, GNP: Gross National product measures a country's output and is the measure of economic activity.

GNP= Consumption+ Investment+ GOVERNMENT SPENDING + Exports - Imports.

Yes government spending is part of the measure of your economic activity. Why so scared of that one?

Last edited by moosekick; 10/28/09 05:55 PM.

Hey, somebody stole my quote! - Me
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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Quote:

-As far as I remember from Economics in university: Price goes down, demand goes up, 100% of the time.




Not to get picky about this point, and it is likely not germane to this topic of health care, but can't help myself

Sometimes if a seller increases the price of an item, the demand actually goes UP

such an example would be so-called luxury items, like jewelry, high-end entertainment gear, or a Hollywood real-estate property

There will always be someone who perceives that if something is more expensive, therefore it is better, and rich but foolish people look at the price and make a judgement based on that


Dow
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Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker
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Imperial_AS_Kicker
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and Starbucks! (Tim Horton's in Canada?)

I recall in the 90's in NYC when there were a ridiculous number of different companies on just about every city block, I remember "Seattle's Best" "Timothy's" and more competing for the caffeinated dollar

then stories about Starbucks doing things like buying some of the smaller coffee shops, and just leaving the stores unoccupied, completely vacant for years, while the nearby Starbucks built their following, at which point they'd sell the property

Don't know a way to legislate against that, it's part of our system, so many disputes and lawsuits are "settled" when one larger company just buys the smaller company as a way to end the claims

thankfully we like Starbucks coffee!


Dow
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