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#91413 12/26/02 07:07 PM
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This is't quite NSD, but still important for NSD/LSD/AS in general. I posted this as a reply on the main board, and thought I would repeat it hear in case anyone missed it there:


I know that we're told that leafy greens and brocolli are a great source of calcium. My sister-in-law, whose kid has never had a glass of milk, says, "That's okay, he likes brocolli." I looked up (online) the amounts of calcium in those things, and we need to be aware of how little is in some of those those non-dairy foods. Brocolli? about 88 per cup . . .

So, those foods are fine to get some extra calcium, but please, do the math and be SURE you are getting enough calcium in a day? I let my sister-in-law know that a few spears of brocolli dipped in ranch dressing a couple of times a week is NOT enough for a 9 year old boy. (To her credit, he does eat a lot of Pizza Hut pizza in his room -- she just opens the door and tosses one in, straight from the delivery boy!)

Finally, I've read repeatedly that supplements aren't as good as the "real thing" (foods with calcium).

Here's a website which list sources and amounts of calcium in foods:

http://www.umassmemorial.org/ummhc/hospitals/med_center/services/osteoporosis/calcium_foods.cfm





Patty

"One day can make your life. One day can ruin your life. All life is is 4 or 5 big days that change everything."
- - - Riding In Cars With Boys

PattyG #91414 12/27/02 07:31 AM
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Hey, Patty:

Nuts and dried fruits are the best for calcium, I think. In 100 gr. almonds give us 250 mg of calcium and hazelnuts 220. The champion is sesame with 780 mg, but I'm not sure to be able to eat 100 gr of sesame.

Between dried fruits -easy to eat like nuts- raisins have 95 mg per 100 gr, and figs 190.

Other very good calcium well is bee pollen: different pollens give different calcium level but taking 3 times per day 1 spoon of pollen (with honney on water or soya milk or even with juice, is yummy) that will give you more than 200 mg calcium. The problem may be starch: 30%. Thereby I'm hesitating: 30% of 3 spoons of bee pollen is 9 gr of starch on 300 gr of juice... too much for one NSDer? Soon I'll test it. Because pollen is one fantastic food, full of minerals, vitamins etc, all very organics.

All the calcium of foods is organic and goes directly to bloodstream. I'm not one specialist like DragonSlayer -he told me the first about all that- but experts tell about uselessness of much calcium supplements wich are calcium carbonate, grind shells. Even cow milk's calcium is more and more questioned nowadays.

Eguberri On (Merry Christmas).

Pello


Pello #91415 12/27/02 06:38 PM
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PattyG Offline OP
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Pello,

Yes, those nuts two nuts are rich in calcium (and other stuff -- Dragon Slayer reminds us to eat a few almonds everyday anyway!). You're a pro at this!! Thanks for the good advice, and lets keep munching those nuts!



Patty

"One day can make your life. One day can ruin your life. All life is is 4 or 5 big days that change everything."
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I stumbled upon something interesting about calcium supplementation while I was reading up on FOS / Inulin today: these nutrients (FOS/inulin) feed nasty microbes such as E. Coli, Salmonella, Enterobacteria and Klebsiella.. I learned that when fed to rats they also increase the 'cytotoxicity of faecal water' (which means your poo is poisonous to your gut lining). That toxicity would have been due to the pathogens having a feast on the undigested FOS / Inulin. However supplementing with calcium improved the health of these rats considerably and seemed to prevent the spread of salmonella to other parts of the body from the gut.

You can read about the toxicity caused by consuming inulin/FOS here in figure 1 :
[image]http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/4/530/F1[/image]
http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/4/530/F1

Figure 2 showed how supplementing with lots of calcium phosphate normalised the amount of mucin in the stools:
<img src="http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/4/530/F2" />
http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/4/530/F2

Figure 4 has a graph that suggests supplementing with calcium reduced the amount of pathogens spreading to other parts of the body. And that feeding the rats lots of FOS/Inulin increased the spread of pathogens from the gut to other parts of the body. This was inferred in the article by the amount of NOx in their urine.. they say regarding inulin and FOS that "both prebiotics markedly stimulated salmonella translocation to extraintestinal sites, as measured by urinary excretion of NOx metabolites. Urinary NOx is a sensitive and quantitative biomarker of intestinal bacterial translocation 28 which correlates with organ cultures 29 and severity of systemic infectious diseases in rats and humans."


Quote:


quoted from: http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/4/530
Gut 2004;53:530-535
© 2004 by BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & British Society of Gastroenterology

Dietary fructo-oligosaccharides and inulin decrease resistance of rats to salmonella: protective role of calcium

[...]
"Apart from the increase in colonisation, both prebiotics markedly stimulated salmonella translocation to extraintestinal sites, as measured by urinary excretion of NOx metabolites. Urinary NOx is a sensitive and quantitative biomarker of intestinal bacterial translocation28 which correlates with organ cultures 29 and severity of systemic infectious diseases in rats and humans.30-32 The increased colonisation and translocation of salmonella in the present study, concomitant with decreased animal growth after infection, indicates that the infection was worse in the low calcium/inulin and FOS groups. These data confirm the results of our previous studies in which FOS increased translocation of salmonella.6,7

Why do inulin and FOS increase translocation of salmonella? Fermentation of both inulin and FOS results in the production of organic acids in the distal gut,33 indicated by the high faecal lactate concentration and the low caecal pH. Accumulation of organic acids and other fermentation metabolites may lead to irritation and impairment of the mucosal barrier.8,9,34 The intestinal mucosa responds to these irritating components by increasing mucus excretion.35,36 Indeed, inulin and FOS increased faecal mucin excretion in the present study. In addition, previous studies showed that fermentable fibres increase faecal mucin excretion.37,38 Thus rapid fermentation of FOS and inulin may impair the mucosal barrier in the distal gut. Translocation of salmonella is believed to occur through ileal Peyer’s patches but this issue is still debated.39 Impairment of the barrier by rapid fermentation of inulin and FOS might expand the possibilities for salmonella to translocate in the distal gut, para- or transcellularly.40 Surprisingly, the effects of inulin and FOS were similar. Probably both prebiotics were equally rapidly fermented in the distal gut resulting in damage to the mucosal barrier. In addition, although organic acids inhibit growth of salmonella in vitro, prebiotic induced alterations in organic acid concentrations may increase salmonella virulence 41,42 and hence increase translocation.

Most adverse effects of inulin and FOS were inhibited by dietary calcium. Calcium forms an insoluble complex with phosphate in the upper small intestine.11 Fermentation of inulin and FOS results in a considerable production of organic acids and hence acidification of gut contents. This can subsequently be counteracted by solubilisation of the calcium phosphate complex. However, when the dietary calcium phosphate supply is limited, the amounts of insoluble calcium phosphate may be insufficient to counteract acidification.9 Moreover, the present study and previous studies 43,44 show that both inulin and FOS stimulate calcium absorption. Subsequently, less calcium phosphate will be available within the intestinal lumen to counteract the adverse effects of acidic fermentation.

Another mechanism by which calcium may improve the mucosal barrier is precipitation of cytotoxic components within the intestinal lumen. The amorphous calcium phosphate complex precipitates cytotoxic components in the intestinal lumen, which reduces epithelial cell damage 45 and increases resistance towards salmonella translocation. Indeed, dietary calcium inhibited the cytotoxicity of faecal water, induced by inulin and FOS. The cytotoxicity assay was performed in a buffer of neutral pH, precluding simple acid induced lysis. Thus calcium phosphate increases the buffering capacity of the intestinal lumen and has cytoprotective effects, which may preserve the mucosal barrier.12

In conclusion, the present study shows that FOS and inulin impair resistance to salmonella infections in rats. This effect is likely due to the rapid production of fermentation metabolites and subsequent impairment of the mucosal barrier. Dietary calcium phosphate inhibited the adverse effects of acidic fermentation and largely prevented damage to the intestinal barrier. The results of the present study await verification in other controlled animal and human studies. However, considering the current interest in health foods supplemented with fermentable fibres, concern is warranted."





what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)
PattyG #91417 05/18/06 04:21 PM
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Here's an old thread on calcium and absorption:

https://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/showfla...true#Post194720

PaulS #91418 05/19/06 12:43 AM
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Quote:

Here's an old thread on calcium and absorption:

https://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/showfla...true#Post194720



thanks paul, there is some useful info in that thread on 'natural calcium'.

also found some other old threads: ...
* Calcium & Other Supplements
https://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=starch&Number=154993

* Article on calcium
https://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=starch&Number=192278


what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)
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This is very interesting Zark. I'm thinking i'm going to try excluding FOS/inulin for a while to see it that improves my situation, the diet is not working at all for me now, after 2.5 month i'm flaring so badly in my SI's that it puts my sciatic nerve in spasm if I move in the wrong way, I keep getting stuck places. Is there a list of FOS/inulin foods i can refer to? I know the onion, garlic and asparagus....


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Hard for me to say what i feel about excluding FOS as generally i do not react negatively to it and feel it is no problem if the gut is relatively healed. I do know i have no ability to digest jerusalem artichokes - similar level to gluten.
However, the Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus thing is huge in AS bodies.
One interest i have in ACV is that it is very useful when cooking chicken broths as a cup of vinegar added will dissolve calcium from the bones and make it available for digestion. Another ACV thing of interest is that it contains boron which is necessary for natural corticosteroids - useful for pain and inflammation modification.
Magnesium is as essential as calcium and is available from greens - it is at the heart of chlorophyll itself and hey, that's where the cows that make dairy get it...
Besides that, it helps heals the gut.
A solid and thoughtful diet makes inroads into AS and no, there is no need for a huge carbohydrate foundation to the food pyramid - everyone will accept that eventually.
Probably when grain is more economic to make car fuels rather than food.
Probably when the third world has zero money - for food.
If you understand the role of phosphorus in all this, then please tell me... but it all starts to fit together a bit when one realizes that vitamin D (from sunshine) is a phosphorus/calcium buffer and balancer.


Ted


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zark #91421 05/19/06 10:12 PM
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Gosh... thought PattyG was posting with us again. Last I heard from her she was moving to Phoenix just prior to me moving. Hope all is well with her... if you look back at early recipes in Diet Recipe Forum, she had nearly all of them.

Ted... you are turning me on to Apple Cider Vinegar again. May have to purchase and incorporate once again.

Tim


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Quote:

Hard for me to say what i feel about excluding FOS as generally i do not react negatively to it and feel it is no problem if the gut is relatively healed. [...]
One interest i have in ACV is that it is very useful when cooking chicken broths as a cup of vinegar added will dissolve calcium from the bones and make it available for digestion. Another ACV thing of interest is that it contains boron which is necessary for natural corticosteroids - useful for pain and inflammation modification.




I know I had trouble with vinegar earlier if I used a very large amount of it.. some back trouble after drinking it. I assumed that this must be some weird kind of liver issue (It did after all my muscles feel kind of sore). But after reading the discussion from the research I quoted above I am know starting to believe what others have been saying all along.. problems with handling acidity.

Very early in the NSD even some acidic fruit caused me some minor problems (oranges / mandarins). At the start of the NSD I may even have had trouble with apples. Not anymore. Grudually over many months I have been building a good tolerance for these acidic fruits.... now I intend to slowly build up my tolerance for vinegar.


what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)
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