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Typical day now...

Morning - mate cocido

Lunch - around 1pm>
- salad with all kinds of greens... normally arugula, red pepper, tomato, red/white cabbage... sometimes carrot, lettuce, radish, bean sprouts, alfalfa or other veggies. Olive oil for dressing.. sometimes vinegar. Also like olives... green or black at times.
- some kind of grilled meat... chicken, pork, beef, fish

About 5pm a snack... walnuts with raisons, grapes, apple or organic yogurt

Super - around 9/10pm - same as lunch but different meat.

I eat a lot of salads.

In Argentina food is less processed, I can go to local Super Market or vegetable stand across the street and buy fresh food much easier. In States I had bit more variety with meat as also had turkey often and lamb sometimes.... in Argentina beef is large part of their culture.

Every Thursday now for 9+ months only eat apples during day and olive oil in the evening to help repair GI. Friday morning typically have a salad with scrambled eggs.

Best regards,

Tim


AS may win some battles, but I will win the war.

KONK - Keep ON Kicking
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Originally Posted By: TeenyBee
I'm confused with the no starch veggies... Can someone please list safe veggies for those with stage 4 klebsiella?

Not sure what stage 4 kleb means, but I'll give you my list of safe no-starch veggies:
Broccoli, kale, chard, spinach, gai lan (Chinese broccoli), baby bok choy, mustard greens, avocados, lettuce, cucumbers (no cores), olives, celery, walnuts, garlic

Quote:
Also, are zucchini, yellow summer zucchini, sunflower seeds butter, pumpkin seeds, avocado, Cauliflower, rutabaga, turnips, haricots verts, Brussel sprouts, and cabbage safe for nsd?

Everyone's different, so take my response with a grain of salt. Early in the NSD, I couldn't eat avocado. Nowadays, I do eat them. I agree with Light's comments on organic avocados and only eat them when they're in season. Cauliflower tested starchy for me, but I know a number of people eat it with no ill effect. At one point, I will try it again. Brussel sprouts also turned black with iodine, but since it is a 'fringe' vegetable for others, I will likely try my luck with it again. Haricot verts are definitely off limits. Cabbage is generally OK, but I find that the core of the cabbage tests positive for starch so I try to avoid the cores. I like naturally fermented sauerkraut. Zucchini's are a fringe food for me. I find that sometimes they are safe and sometimes they test positive for starch. Ultimately I avoided because it was a pain to cut out the core (which is starchy).


"But I also have to say, for the umpty-umpth time, that life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all." -- from William Goldman's _Princess Bride_
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Originally Posted By: TeenyBee
Would u guys be so kind as to post what ur typical daily diet looks like? It would really help me conceptualize this

Breakfast - three eggs fried in butter and a large bowl of broccoli
Lunch - a trough of salad topped with some baked chicken and some naturally brined olives
Dinner - fish or poultry, huge bowl of sauteed green leaf veggie (broccoli, kale, chard, baby bok choy, etc.)

I'll eat lamb once or twice a week but generally do not eat red meat.

Quote:
Also, does anyone react to foods high in histamine? Anyone avoiding fruit bc of candida?

For four years I had a sugar embargo because of candida. Last summer was the first one in a while where I ate select fruits. Funny thing is that after 4 years of not eating fruits and sugars, when I had an opportunity to add it back in my diet, I didn't like it as much as I thought I would. Don't get me wrong, I loved eating freshly picked blueberries, but I noticed that I liked the way I felt when I didn't eat any sugar at all. Go figure.

Quote:
Do u guys do squashes?

Nope.

Good luck!


"But I also have to say, for the umpty-umpth time, that life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all." -- from William Goldman's _Princess Bride_
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Thanks so much. What do u mean by fringe food?

How important is it to be no starch vs low starch? Like, can someone who is underweight add a small amt of Butternut squash once a day (like half to 1c)?its only 12g carbs and most of it is sugar, not starch.

What types of apples are usually safe? Granny Smith are sour and tend to not be mealy, so would these be best? Also, what about additive free organic apple sauce... Its cooked and cooking generally converts starch to Sugar.

I have a candida issue too, but I read that small amts of berries or apples is ok, right?

What macronutrient ratio do u guys follow... High fat? If so, what percent of ur diet is carb da and pro?

What do u do for snacks?

How are haricots verts off limits?

Thanks for the help

Lastly, is cellulose in supplements ok? What filler do we need to avoid in supps?

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Originally Posted By: TeenyBee
Thanks so much. What do u mean by fringe food?

I define a fringe food as something that has such a low amount of starch that many don't react to it. But, if you are really sensitive, you can react to it. As an example, in my first few years of the diet, I couldn't eat avocados. Now I can. I suspect zucchini and cauliflower are the same.

Our experiences can differ so much from person to person. I look at the list of veggies that Tim says he can eat, and I'm envious. You'll need to figure out what your body reacts to. Just know that it can change over time, so what was off limits one year, may be different the next if you continue to heal.

IMO, the virtues of a food diary and an elimination diet to help figure this stuff out cannot be emphasized enough! smile

Quote:
How important is it to be no starch vs low starch?

This is a personal decision. Some people are content enough with the benefits afforded with a low starch diet. For me, I ended up being very stricly no-starch because I could still detect a reaction to certain low starch veggies. My goal was to be completely asymptomatic. (Depending on the extent of the disease's progression, the state of fusion, etc., I suspect certain people can never be truly asymptomatic.) As I got better, I figured out what was a culprit. Things that I thought early on were safe, I ended up realizing were triggering a very minor reaction. Ultimately, I made the decision to go very strict. You have to decide what is best for your decision. As with everything, weigh the pros and the cons and don't take any unnecessary risks.

Quote:
Like, can someone who is underweight add a small amt of Butternut squash once a day (like half to 1c)?its only 12g carbs and most of it is sugar, not starch.

I really think this is a personal decision. I eliminated sugars for non-spondy reasons (e.g., candidiasis) and was grateful that I did. However, I learned a lot along the way and constantly had to tinker with my diet the first 6-12 months until I really started stabilizing.

The weight issue for NSD/LSD is a pretty frequent topic. For me, I started off at ~155 lbs. I didn't have a lot of weight to lose and I dropped to a frightening ~127 lbs. My friends and family were really worried. My big epiphany, and one that I can't stress enough, is that we tend to underestimate just how much veggies we need to eat when we're NSD. I doubled my non-starch veggie consumption, halved my protein consumption, and over the next few years, I normalized. Currently, I fluctuate between the high 140s and the low 150s. I'm happy with my weight again. For me, it's a ketogenic diet, so it takes a while for your body to adjust processing fats for energy as opposed to sugars.

There will be an endless debate on what diet is perfect. Putting aside the notion that there's no one size fits all diet, I'd argue that three properties of an ideal diet are:
1. Balanced diet
2. No processed foods
3. Limit your sugars

In regards to the balanced diet, it's not a No Carb Diet, it's a No Starch Diet. So you need to seek out the no starch carbs and really make sure you eat enough of those.

Quote:
What types of apples are usually safe? Granny Smith are sour and tend to not be mealy, so would these be best? Also, what about additive free organic apple sauce... Its cooked and cooking generally converts starch to Sugar.

I don't have good feedback for you here because I avoid apples.

Quote:
I have a candida issue too, but I read that small amts of berries or apples is ok, right?

The ultimate test is whether you can detect a reaction. If you can, and you don't want to tolerate those effects, then you shouldn't eat it. For me, when I started eating sugars again last summer, I added blueberries back in (only when in season, organic, and straight from the farmer). My philosophy on fruits is that if I'm going to eat sugars, it really needs to be nutrient dense fruits. I think blueberries make the cut for me, but apples will not. (I suspect most apples are pretty starchy too.)

Quote:
What macronutrient ratio do u guys follow... High fat? If so, what percent of ur diet is carb da and pro?

I'm on a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet. As I alluded earlier, when I first started I ate way too much protein and way too little carbs. This was a huge mistake for me. I ended up using the guidelines on the following URL to course correct.
http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/foods8.php

Just remember that just as there are good vs. bad carbs, there are good vs. bad fats. Avoid the hydrogenated oils, and don't shy away from the healthy fats.

I looked at a lot of candida protocol sites, but I ultimately settled on Bee's path. Some of it overlaps with the general notion of NSD/LSD. Other AS-kickers followed it with good results, so I felt it couldn't be too out there. While some of the information is presented in a very sensational, anti-establishment propaganda manner, I ultimately felt that the path she outlines is a pretty good one. And the closer I followed it, the better I felt over time. None of it can be scientifically proven, but in hindsight, I really do feel that a lot of the things she prescribes are pretty good. It's pretty overwhelming, so start slow and whittle away. It's a journey. A long one at that! frown

I can say that though have massively inconvenient this diet is for me, I would not do it any other way. In the last 5 years, not only am I now completely asymptomatic, but I have only gotten sick twice during that time frame. I don't think it's a coincidence that your diet can influence your immune system and your general overall health.

Quote:
What do u do for snacks?

Ironically, once my body adjusted, I no longer find a need to snack. The only exception to that are days where I'm extremely physcially active. On those days, I tend to eat a very large meal (e.g. six eggs, even more copious portion of veggies) and that usually keeps me going. Emergency snacks for me are walnuts and spoons of coconut oils. When they're in season, I'll also use blueberries and blackberries as a convenience food.

Quote:
How are haricots verts off limits?

For me, yes. No legumes.

Quote:
Thanks for the help

You bet! I remember the initial months of the diet and found the whole process overwhelming. I was always grateful for the other members of the forum weighing in, so hopefully I'm contributing positively in the same manner. Just remember that everyone is different. I don't claim to know everything and why it works, but presenting you with my experiences and thoughts may give you something to consider. As I mentioned earlier, always weigh the pros and cons before making a decision and don't take unnecessary risks. The challenge in this is that we do not have perfect information. You can always find anecdotal or even scientific information that will contradict something, so you just have to make tough decisions. Common sense should prevail though. Good luck!

Quote:
Lastly, is cellulose in supplements ok? What filler do we need to avoid in supps?

I just checked the two capsules I take and there is some cellulose in it. My counsel here will be to test with iodine. If it turns black, stay away. Also, manufacturers can change their formulation, so you may want to test over time. Also keep in mind that some starches will not turn black immediately - it may take a few hours for the positive starch result to show from the iodine.

My philosophy for supplements is that if you have a really super healthy/nutrient dense diet, you don't need a whole lot. I only take a magnesium citrate, calcium citrate, Vitamin C, cod liver oil, Vit B complex, and a probiotic. Nothing crazy.

Most tablets are starchy because the binding agents tend to be starchy. That's why I rely on pure calcium citrate powder.

I know all of this can be overwhelming, so take baby steps. There are lots of other people who offer sage advice, so you'll be wising in canvassing a broader spectrum of experiences and thoughts. Good luck in all of this! smile And I apologize for the massively long response!


"But I also have to say, for the umpty-umpth time, that life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all." -- from William Goldman's _Princess Bride_
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Former foodie, thanks so much for such a kind and through reply. I have been struggling a ton. I am nauseous when I go to bed and thru out the night. It's horrendous. I don't have an appetite in the am, but when I finally force myself to eat, I feel like I cant stop. I know my dysbiosis is really bad.... I've had klebsi since at least prior to 2010,as well as high yeast, various bacteria, parasites, u name it. I almost feel them become active during the day and especially at night, hence the ravenous appetite and insomnia and nausea. The more low starch I go, the worse I feel. Is this common? What can I do to stop these physical symptoms and urges to eat?.... My body especially craves coconut butter/milk, but being high in inulin and fructose (and copper) this is not a good food for me bc it really bothers my stomach and flares my gut

The daily diet u outlined, how much and what types of fats are u using each meal? How many ounces of cooked protein?

Veggies don't satiate me. I'm not feeling satisfied with my meals and idk why. I'm not digesting well either.

I'm really struggling. My energy is poor, my wt is scary low, and I'm feeling so sick and out of control as the day goes on. Any advice and is this normal?

What are ur general macronutrient grams and percentages? This would help me a lot

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Originally Posted By: TeenyBee
Former foodie, thanks so much for such a kind and through reply. I have been struggling a ton. I am nauseous when I go to bed and thru out the night. It's horrendous. I don't have an appetite in the am, but when I finally force myself to eat, I feel like I cant stop. I know my dysbiosis is really bad.... I've had klebsi since at least prior to 2010,as well as high yeast, various bacteria, parasites, u name it. I almost feel them become active during the day and especially at night, hence the ravenous appetite and insomnia and nausea. The more low starch I go, the worse I feel. Is this common? What can I do to stop these physical symptoms and urges to eat?.... My body especially craves coconut butter/milk, but being high in inulin and fructose (and copper) this is not a good food for me bc it really bothers my stomach and flares my gut

I'm speculating, but I imagine a lot of your hunger pains is from the possibility that your body is still desiring sugars. It's tough to kick that habit. It took about 2-4 weeks for me to kick my desire to eat any sugary/starchy foods.

Quote:
The daily diet u outlined, how much and what types of fats are u using each meal? How many ounces of cooked protein?

I shoot for 75 grams of protein, 60 grams of carbs, and 188 to 263 grams of fats per day (I just used the calculator to get that). I get a lot of my fats from taking spoons of extra virgin coconut oil. I also use copious amounts of butter when I cook. That's the only dairy I eat. I still eat butter because of its purported gut healing properties.

Quote:
Veggies don't satiate me. I'm not feeling satisfied with my meals and idk why. I'm not digesting well either.

Veggies don't satisfy me either but I know I have to get enough carbs. Fatty foods satisfy me (coconut oil, eggs, avocados, etc.).

Quote:
I'm really struggling. My energy is poor, my wt is scary low, and I'm feeling so sick and out of control as the day goes on. Any advice and is this normal?

Some people believe in Herxheimer reactions. These healing reactions make you feel worse even though you're getting better. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I do know that in my first month when I really went strict with the diet (no starch/no sugar), I was super cranky and not very well. It took me a while for my body to adjust.

Quote:
What are ur general macronutrient grams and percentages? This would help me a lot

I hope the numbers above help. There's a calculator on the link I sent earlier. That's what I used for myself. Your situation may be different.

Take it slow. This is important. Make sure you're getting enough calories. In hindsight, I didn't eat enough and ate the wrong things in the beginning. Keep adjusting your diet until you find something that begins to work for you.

One of my other philosophies for managing the disease is to diversify my approach. I believe my diet was the biggest driver, but other things can help as well. Meditation, short walks (if you're feeling well enough), acupuncture (buyer beware because not all acupuncturists are good and everyone has different experiences), etc. It's a long road. Depending on the extent of the disease's progression, that may also be influencing your experiences. I was lucky that I caught my disease in a relatively early state.

Good luck! Hang in there!


"But I also have to say, for the umpty-umpth time, that life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all." -- from William Goldman's _Princess Bride_
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Thanks. So can u tell me how u incorporate the fat it ur meals, like can u post ur diet again, but with the serving sizes of ur veg, meat, and fats (ie, 3oz cooked meat, 3tbs coconut oil, 2c cauli).... It would help me conceptualize how to add all the fat and balance this bc this is such a different way to eat for me

Did adding all the fat help u lose weight and gain muscle? How did it affect your body composition?

I was stupid and binged on dates last night. I think I was herxing so badly from going low carb, eating lots of coconut products, not digesting well, taking antimicrobial herbs and not doing Probiotics. I hope I can get back to detoxing.... The die off was rough: major insomnia, no energy, reactions to foods, cravungs especially at night... Any tips for this

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Originally Posted By: TeenyBee
I'm really struggling. My energy is poor, my wt is scary low, and I'm feeling so sick and out of control as the day goes on. Any advice and is this normal?


When I started diet... I struggled with energy on and off for 1/2 year.

You may need Low Starch at first and incorporate some more easily digested starch than risking doing more damage to your body. Do not become obsessed with diet... work on it little by little if energy is that poor and scares you.

If you also have candida.. that is separate issue that can also flare AS symptoms. When I had these issues, I had to cut out fruit entirely... had garlic to help rid myself of the candida and then increased my probiotics afterwards. It was not easy.

Here is what I did to finally combat my energy/weight issues:
- walnuts with raisons
- probitioc organic yogurt
- 3 day apple fasts (this is what turned it around ironically)

You have the rest of your life to live... it may take some time to sort all of this out.

Tim


AS may win some battles, but I will win the war.

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I have a lot of dysbiosis and it's been hard figuring out what to eat bc of this and the subsequent food reactions and body flares it causes. I've been dealing with this since childhood, and my health is so poor now. I don't have much time to waste on this anymore bc i want to live my life already

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