Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Two AS Sub-groups?

>> "I suspect that most people on prescription strength quantities of NSAIDS are rendered oblivious to this."

That was something I wanted to add the minute I read this post :-) I really do believe that using NSAID's made me completely oblivious to the problem foods that were exacerbating my AS. But when my reactions to NSAID's became too severe, I had to stop taking them. Bloody agony ! And only then did I realise that fried foods, etc really did exacerbate my AS very significantly.

you're not rambling :-) your thoughts reflected mine so accurately !

z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

>> "Obviously the non-diet people do not have them. Doesn't it make them different?"

How would they know? The majority of people wouldn't know how to manage going a day without starch. And I think I can say that - since I am in the same boat. In my opinion people are only slowly starting to question the food they put in their mouth more and more. But the majority of people still think their body is some kind of magical machine that can process any piece of junk from the supermarket.

I have often considered asking the kind of people that you were arguing with at your dinner : how long do they think a monkey or ape would last if it were eating a western diet? We humans must have very well evolved digestive system, since no other animal can remain healthy on the typical western diet. Well evolved perhaps, but not impervious !!

hope u don't mind my ramblings wally :-) and please dont think i'm attacking you ! My personal opinion is that rather than having 2 sub groups that it is really more of a broad spectrum of people who respond to diet with varying degrees. But even if it is more of a spectrum.. then it would still be easier to classify them in two group as you suggested.

peace,
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

>> Have you ever fed a sick pet or horse a different diet and/or nutraceutical and seen stunning results? Was the pet or horse capable of faking the results?

oops, looks like I am repeating what you said. "great minds think alike" and all that.... but how does that explain this???? does the saying hold true for fools like me :-)

z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

>> It is just they respect their doctors' opinions that diet is not a major factor and they see no evidence to contradict this. I believe if they had the same experience of taking certain food and getting a flare as I do they would soon see the link.

I think maybe you are right there .. It took a long time for me to realise for myself that deep fried starches are hell. The onset of the pain is quite delayed, and it is extremely difficult to notice these latent reactions unless you decide to take the time to monitor your pain levels through the day, and after eating.

do you know how !@#$!@# long it took me to realise my iritis is caused by wheat, and in particular fried starches.. must have taken 7 years or so before I knew the connection. Talk about feeling like a dope ! And I am sure I NEVER would have looked for the connection if it wasn't for the work done by ppl like john and bilko.

Also, if I hadn't been "lucky" enough to be forced off NSAID's , then I wouldn't have noticed that fateful bag of chips that sent me ribs into spasms. And if that hadn't happened .. then maybe I might have been one of those ppl who are indignant at someone even mentioning that wacky idea of a food - disease link.

more of my darn ranting :-)
z

"So long and thanks for all the fish" - Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

Hi Sue

You wrote "Wally so long as you're gonna think in terms of us and them it doesn't help anyone."

Doesn't every debate have an 'us' and 'them' ? But only on the issue - there are no dark overtones. Your comment suggests you think what I have written is divisive. I humbly suggest that the division already exists. You only have to read what is written on this thread to come to that conclusion. Each thinks the other is misguided. By suggesting that both sides are right, but only for their group, I thought I was being inclusive.

It would be 'us' and 'them' for England and Australia before and during the Rugby World Cup final (coming up in less than a day as I write this). But it shouldn't prevent both sides having a drink together after the match. Go the Wallabies!

Wally

Hi John

I have been giving some consideration to your points about Ebringer's studies -

"In 20 years and over 450 patients Ebringer did not find one person with AS that was not caused by Klebsiella pneumoniae and those on his unsupervised 'eat whatever you want but try and follow my London AS Diet' had a greater than 98% success rate ..."

This seems to present an open and shut case supporting your position that all AS sufferers can improve their condition by diet modification. Or does it?

I have tried to find details of Ebringer's studies and reviews of them on-line without success so what follows is just based on common sense.

For his studies Ebringer must have required committed volunteers. They would have to agree to real restrictions on their eating for what - weeks(?). I can imagine the response of some non-diet AS people I know who have lived with the disease for say 10 years to a request to take part in such a study. A suggestion they should give up bread, potato, ice-cream, beer etc. to help a researcher prove a theory they had already decided long ago was false. Answers along the lines of "You've got to be joking" or "Not #?!£&* likely!" wouldn't be far off.

But what about the recently diagnosed? They would have an open mind free of prejudice wouldn't they? Who is the professional closest to them on their disease, the one they would most likely seek for advice before going on a study related to AS? It is probably the one who diagnosed them - their radiologist. We all know what advice he would be likely to give. On the other hand there could be people like me who was asking questions about diet-symptom connections well before I was diagnosed. Of course I would jump at the opportunity to take part in such a survey. I think much the same could be said of many Kickas members.

So what am I saying? It seems to me Ebringer's study groups would most likely consist predominantly of people very like the Kickas group of members. This would then put in question Ebringer's conclusions applying to all AS sufferers (applying to the pro-diet AS group only?).

The above assumes attitudes of AS sufferers were the same at the time of Ebringer's studies as they are today, which may not necessarily be true.

Wally

Hi Mig

Someone from the other side! Are there others like you on Kickas as well?

I was very interested in your comments. You say your reticence to start on an LSD/NSD is due to a fear of losing more weight. I started experimenting with diet long before I knew about Kickas and LSD. By intermittently fasting I lost 20 kilos. Too easily, too fast I thought. I even started a thread on 'weight gain on LSD?'. I started consuming lots of cream and full-cream milk (I may be sensitive to dairy, but if so it is very subtle) and put back a little weight. However a naturopath persuaded me that I was not going to restore the muscle I lost and all I would put back would be fat, which was what I had observed.

So now I have given up on putting back muscle and have learned to accept my skinny body. I have a huge protein breakfast and lots of fish and salad during the rest of the day. By eating a lot of the foods within the diet my weight has stabilised and, although I seem to have much less muscle, I am almost as strong as before. I am just so determined to lick this disease. Lately the sacrifice has paid off and I'll never turn back now.

I like all the foods you list and miss them terribly but I now have an iron resolve and never (well rarely) touch anything outside my plan. I'm sorry, but I can't understand you not trying the diet in over 20 years. I accept what you say about food - "...just feel that food is the last good sensation I get from life." but why not give it a try, for a few weeks at least, eating more of the foods within the diet. You can then judge whether it is worth the sacrifice.

I see you waded into the debate about Ebringer. I have too, as you will see elsewhere, and I am expecting to be heaped with derision! I think some Kickas people expect that when he dies if he can't make to the right side he will at least be seated at the left side of God.

Wally

Hi Zark

That's a different idea - "more of a broad spectrum of people who respond to diet with varying degrees". Why not? But it still implies there are AS sufferers at the non-diet end who get no benefit to their condition by modifying diet. This is basically posing the same question as I do but in a modified way.

I see you are off NSAID completely. Congratulations. I'm working in that direction and am down to less than a quarter of my original prescription.

Wally

Hi Jan

I agree with your comments about compliance. This would help explain failed attempts to repeat Ebringer's results. It was only after I tightened up on the discipline with the diet that I really improved.

How can anyone know whether the diet would work for the non-diet AS people if they never try it? You will see elsewhere that I make the suggestion that Ebringer may never have included these people in his studies because they wouldn't have volunteered.

Wally