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#518426 - 03/14/18 05:15 PM Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease
babuka Offline
Lurker

Registered: 01/02/18
Posts: 1
There is a paper published several days ago on gut bacteria and autoimmune disease. Any thoughts on this?


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180308143102.htm

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#518445 - 03/16/18 01:18 AM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: babuka]
Robin_H Offline
Third_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 292
Loc: Central Canada
The notion that gut bacteria can escape from the gut lumen and into the organs to form biofilms that evade the immune system is old news. Perforated guts that allow infection to get established in the peritoneum is not unheard of.

But just like having found the gene for male pattern baldness decades ago doctor still don't know what to do with it in cases of chronic illness when the microbe is not detectable.

In the past few months I have posted in these forums that our gut microbiota communicates with the reneged bacteria in our organs and I hypothesized that people that do not benefit from a NSD diet have extremely large populations of renegade bacteria in their organ tissue. High gut permeability, mast cell proliferation, and as many other factors that the imagination can conjure probably are good hypothesis too.

In the summer of 2015 I told the head of rheumatology at my favourite hospital that I believed that the use of NSAIDs allowed gut microbes to escape and get into my body resulting in spinal inflammation and other symptoms of AS. She said to me, "Yes. There are good bugs and there are bad bugs. I can get you to a doctor that can help you."

The look on her face and demeanor in her voice disturbed me. She promptly referred me to a psychiatrist. I hope to meet her in Hell. I have some bones to pick with her (for thousands of years!)

It is possible that many pathogens colonize our gut all our life but do not cause problems until the gut integrity is lost and the pathogen finds its way into our body. After that I think that targeted IV antibiotics is the best way to go to avoid damaging the gut biota. I wish a skin patch worked instead of a PICC line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3lwhL4rEaA

Locating, identifying and specifically targeting microbes in humans is in its infancy. Within the past year using radio-tracers that are highly preferred by certain bacteria were used in a human experiment. The bacteria were located using PET. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171005111111.htm

I have noticed heavy use of IVs in small clinics in some Asian countries. I don't know what is in it but I do know that they are often going for treatments to lower inflammation.
_________________________
HLA-B27 neg, vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s
1993:fibromyalgia (age 25)
2013.07:Reverse blockage in a SCUBA accident
2013.08:Scratched by a sick cat
2013.09:Strange sore throat then meningitis
2014:Chronic inflammation at the base of the skull
2014 to early 2015:excess NSAID use developed complete axial inflammation, included psoriasis
NSD helped well and but was not perfect
2018.07: weak +'ve tests for borrelia, babesia, bartonella and mycoplasma pneumonia using Armin Lab, ANA=equivocal

Top
#518446 - 03/16/18 01:51 AM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: babuka]
Robin_H Offline
Third_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 292
Loc: Central Canada
On a related note...

South Med J. 2007 Apr;100(4):366-70.
Treatment of ankylosing spondylitis with moxifloxacin.

"The relationship between AS and enterobacteria, especially Klebsiella pneumoniae, has been reported from several groups in several countries. We performed an open-label trial of moxifloxacin, a fluoroquinolone antibiotic, in patients with ankylosing spondylitis. Treatment with moxifloxacin resulted in significant and sustained improvement. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17458395
_________________________
HLA-B27 neg, vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s
1993:fibromyalgia (age 25)
2013.07:Reverse blockage in a SCUBA accident
2013.08:Scratched by a sick cat
2013.09:Strange sore throat then meningitis
2014:Chronic inflammation at the base of the skull
2014 to early 2015:excess NSAID use developed complete axial inflammation, included psoriasis
NSD helped well and but was not perfect
2018.07: weak +'ve tests for borrelia, babesia, bartonella and mycoplasma pneumonia using Armin Lab, ANA=equivocal

Top
#518510 - 03/26/18 09:32 AM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: Robin_H]
AlpineAg Offline
New_Member

Registered: 01/30/18
Posts: 13
Hi Robin,

This time last year I was in a world of gut pain. I was waking at 4am with lower stomach aches which would recur throughout the day. It persisted for a couple of months.

I had a colonoscopy and endoscopy - both came back clear of the major nasties, although my intestinal villi were flattened (often associated with celiac disease but my tests came back clear). No ulcers, no Helicobacter, no bleeding. The Gastro shrugged his shoulders and said something like "meh, who knows" and I was cast adrift.

I started on Alflorex, a probiotic produced here in Ireland: my GP recommended it. I thought, "what's another €30." It cleared up my 4am pains.

Immediately.

For a month or so.

Then they started again.

I switched to another probiotic with different strains of bacteria - success again, for a month or so.

In January, I stopped taking anti-inflammatories (meloxicam) as we are trying to conceive. My AS came back at me with all the inflammation it could muster. It was excruciating.

Then, slowly things changed. My pain reduced to the same level as when I was on anti-inflammatories. I could manage it effectively, but not totally, with paracetamol and exercise.

And my stomach started to mend itself. It's been six weeks since I woke at 4am with stomach pains. I can eat normal, healthy foods again (read: whatever I want). I don't get constipation anymore. No more unexplained cramps. No more chronic reflux.

Life and health are complicated. I underwent radon treatment in February. I'm still taking varied probiotics. I don't know if my sustained gastrointestinal recovery is due to one or all of these factors but I do know that I feel significantly better 9 weeks after I stopped taking anti-inflammatories.

I know it's scary to throw out the old faithfuls but after the initial flare, I've had nothing but improved gut health and a sense of freedom from those little pills. It may not help everyone. I'm sure your doctor won't agree. But for me, it was the right thing to do. For now, at least.

I hope that the future brings more specific research directed at anti-inflammatories and their influence on gut health, in the meantime, we have some science to draw on a whole lot of anecdotal evidence. We can only share our stories - and that one is mine!

Cheers, Ag
_________________________
HLA B27 +ve. Localised pain in SI joints, lumbar and thoracic spine. No swelling. Eyes OK, peripheral joints OK. NSAID usage from 2005 to 2018, meloxicam.

Least favourite saying: No Pain No Gain.

2005 - Diagnosed after two years of debilitating SI pain, early 20's
2017 - Waitlist for rheumatologist in Ireland=14-months
2018 - Seeking alternatives

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#519580 - 04/10/19 10:14 PM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: Robin_H]
tvmanjon Offline
New_Member

Registered: 01/24/19
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
Robin,
I also came across the Moxifloxacin study in the past but couldn't find anything else on it. Have you? It seems to have died on the vine.

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#519585 - 04/19/19 09:47 PM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: Robin_H]
tvmanjon Offline
New_Member

Registered: 01/24/19
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
Robin Have you heard anymore about its use?

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#519652 - 05/21/19 05:18 PM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: tvmanjon]
Robin_H Offline
Third_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 292
Loc: Central Canada
Hello Ag and Tvmanjon:

I have not been active here for a long time and my symptoms have evolved greatly, plus getting worse -- all connective tissue is burning, stinging, stiffening, tightening and getting sensitive to tension.

The less I touch NSAIDs the better. They give practically no benefit anyway and never really did -- did more harm than good. They should be banned from society!

I do not recall seeing anything more about using the antibiotic called moxifloxacin to treat klebsiella in AS.

I am not an expert but I imagine that AS is a multi-layered disease requiring at least an environmental cause of inflammation, an environmental factor that interferes with normal healing, the genetics to be predisposed to abnormal healing from inflammation, and genetics to react to an environmental contagion. The gut is a huge influence.

In my case, I do not have the genetics or contagion to cause the rapid kyphosis or ankylosing in the spine, but I do have quite a bit of spondylitis on one side of my upper spine that seems to be caused by infection(s) -- bartonella from kitten scratches and perhaps something I picked in my inner ear during a scuba diving accident five years ago. Before that I still had very isolated spondylitis, and the cause is suspected to be chronic, low-grade infection established almost 30 years ago (in my early 20s) that took advantage of a weak spot from a back injury sustained at age 10.

Related to the gut, my epithelial tissues -- skin, gut lining and blood vessels -- are not working right. There is neurological dysfunction in all of them and two of my doctors say it is from the bartonella infection. My gut doesn't hurt but feels dry, tight, stinging and burning from my mouth all the way to the anus. When I eat rice or other starch, the symptoms worsen. Two doctors are confident that microbial parasites are the cause and so I took their recommendation and ordered a DNA stool analysis from Diagnostics Solutions called GI-map.

The test showed:


  • Prevotella copri at a level 10x higher than what is normally found in people who have it, which can easily explain why every synovial tissue (and others) are burning and stiff due to cross-reactivity of anti-bodies trying to target the p. copri.
  • H. pylori at such low levels that I should not be having any issues from them. However the strain has a virulence factor called babA that might be significant.
  • My healthy microbe populations are low in numbers and narrow in diversity, which will allow problems and so probitoics have been recommended.
  • Klebsiella pneumoniae is present at a level of 100x lower than accepted maximum levels.
  • A high normal for anti-gliadin IgA and a high normal for calprotectin indicting a busy gut immune system and some minor inflammtion respectively.


My symptoms look identical to AS -- spine effects are mostly in the sacrum and the base of the skull/jaw -- but have reduced in intensity since their peak in 2015. Inflammation has spread from my skeletal axis and moved into my feet and hands around October 2017 and February 2018 respectively.

One round of three weeks of clarithomyacin was done in February and it made a huge improvement in blood circulation in my hands and feet as I suspected it would. Central nervous system symptoms were mostly eliminated also. These signs and symptoms were caused by the bartonella. However problems in all my joints remain. Remaining infection of bartonella combined with the prevotella copri are assumed.

A second three week treatment using clarithomyacin just this month made no improvement and so a new combination of antibiotics are going to be tried (rifampin), but doc wants to target the prevotella corpi first with cipro (which is not a safe abx), but I literally feel that the p. copri is an important reason as to why my synovial membrane stinging, burning and pain increase when I eat starch.

I'm going try many antifungals too, even though candida DNA was not present. However, I do have gliotoxin in my urine and the best explanation is either foods or a strange, internal fungal infection. For the past five years I have not been able to naturally eliminate a common fungus on my toenail which indicates that branch of my immune system that should get rid if it is down regulated, suppressed by something since abusing NSAIDs in 2014-15.

The moral of the story, avoid infections from bugs and pets, and be kind to your gut.
_________________________
HLA-B27 neg, vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s
1993:fibromyalgia (age 25)
2013.07:Reverse blockage in a SCUBA accident
2013.08:Scratched by a sick cat
2013.09:Strange sore throat then meningitis
2014:Chronic inflammation at the base of the skull
2014 to early 2015:excess NSAID use developed complete axial inflammation, included psoriasis
NSD helped well and but was not perfect
2018.07: weak +'ve tests for borrelia, babesia, bartonella and mycoplasma pneumonia using Armin Lab, ANA=equivocal

Top
#519654 - 05/22/19 05:28 AM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: Robin_H]
Cymro Offline
Active_Member

Registered: 11/01/18
Posts: 55
Originally Posted By Robin_H


The less I touch NSAIDs the better. They give practically no benefit anyway and never really did -- did more harm than good. They should be banned from society!



I assume that you are joking when you say NSAIDs. should be banned. To put the other side to the argument NSAIDs. are for many people just about the best and sometimes only relief they can get for the pain of A.S. Granted you must be careful to only take them on a full stomach and if necessary be prepared to take stomach protecting medication such as Lansoprazole. I remember the first time I went on NSAIDs. way back in 1964. The result was near miraculous and I have been on some NSAID ever since. I can't imagine how the medical profession would cope with A.S. patients without NSAIDs.

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#519657 - 05/22/19 07:54 PM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: AlpineAg]
tvmanjon Offline
New_Member

Registered: 01/24/19
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
AG
You said " I underwent radon treatment in February. "Was that at a Radon mine? Have you made a correlation between the radon treatment and your improvement?

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#519666 - 05/26/19 05:35 PM Re: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease [Re: babuka]
Robin_H Offline
Third_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 292
Loc: Central Canada
Hi Cymro:

Yes, I realized that I was sounding extremist but I didn't hold back. For sure, NSAIDs are useful. I just which I was properly informed when they were prescribed.

On a related note, I am finding that my one week of a carnivore diet has reduced inflammation, burning, stinging and pain so that I can sleep more comfortably. I am hoping that after a month my immune system will calm more. But I don't want to be just eating bacon, eggs, steak, chicken and fish too long.
_________________________
HLA-B27 neg, vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s
1993:fibromyalgia (age 25)
2013.07:Reverse blockage in a SCUBA accident
2013.08:Scratched by a sick cat
2013.09:Strange sore throat then meningitis
2014:Chronic inflammation at the base of the skull
2014 to early 2015:excess NSAID use developed complete axial inflammation, included psoriasis
NSD helped well and but was not perfect
2018.07: weak +'ve tests for borrelia, babesia, bartonella and mycoplasma pneumonia using Armin Lab, ANA=equivocal

Top

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