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#519446 - 02/15/19 10:48 AM two month NSD update: limited results
Bazel Offline
New_Member

Registered: 12/28/18
Posts: 20
Hi forum,

I've been on a no-sugar no starch diet for 2 months, mostly through info I got from the helpful people on this forum. Last 3 weeks were very strict, in which I tested everything and removed supplements with starch. I came to be almost symptom free for a day or two, but then the pain returned. I am also on my 5th week of Embrel, so not sure how that interacts. I am tapering prednison now, taking 10mg.

I have severe IBS-D with fatigue, had it before AS. I am now battling both (mainly candida I think). I don't think I can get AS under control if my stomach is such a mess. I added honey to my diet, since it seemed to have anti-fungal properties and I was losing weight like mad. So it's not really no-sugar any more. After an almost keto-diet, I've added foods to try and fix my gut microbe. I don't think keto will bring me a healthy gut flora.

I eat:
Cauliflower, root-celery, celery-juice (homemade) shiitake mushrooms, meat, eggs, fish, apple cider vinigar, walnut, raspberry, pancakes (glutinous rice, eggs, coconut milk, coconut oil and honey).

Supplements: curcuma, PARA-DTX, Betaine HCL, omega oil, milk thistle, licorice root, nettle tea, L-glutamine, vitamins (all capsules). I ordered GutPro Infant probiotics from Janclebro's advice.

A few days agp I have been dumb and ate Tofu with tamari. Both are starch-free, but the day after my pain increased again. It was right after my first 2 stable days.. Can be a coincidence.

Looking at my list I may have added too much stuff. On the one side I am trying to fix my gut, on the other hand trying to exclude stuff. What do you guys suggest?

(P.S. I have a random question: I get extremely fatigued when I used to eat pastas, right after the meal. Now I am noticing I also get extreme fatigue about 1.5 hours after eating chicken-breast. I've read chicken-breast is hard to digest. My hypothesis is with the pasta I had trouble digesting so much carbs. With the meat, it seems like the transition from stomach into intestins (after 1.5 hour) is causing me problems.. All in all I think I may have no stomach acid, since I can take so much betaine with barely effect. I did the stomach acid test with baking soda, and I didnt have to burp at all. Tried it 2 days. Any ideas whats happening in my gut?)

Thanks!

-Bas

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#519452 - 02/16/19 08:12 PM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Bazel]
Kellybells Offline
First_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 168
Loc: Canada
Hi Bazel

So sorry to hear about your mixed results. I'm so glad you shared what you're eating. You're making lots of good choices (celery root is a personal favourite....mashed with rutabaga, it makes an excellent substitute for mashed potaoes). But there's a few that give me pause...

The glutinous rice is a huge red flag for me. I'm a few years in and I still can't eat glutinous rice without some reaction, even though I have greatly improved my starch tolerance over time.

Although glutinous rice is low in amylose starch, which allows it be digested quite quickly so that the starch doesn't make it far enough along the GI tract to feed your gut bacteria, it's potentially problematic. For example, eat large amounts, and not all will get digested early on. And mixing it with fat (e.g. coconut oil and milk) makes it more resistant to digestion, which means it will make it to the bacteria, which is where the trouble starts.

In my early months of my NSD, strict meant eating no more than 2 grams of starch per day. I tried glutinous rice a few times but reacted. You might try removing it.

I also had issues with cauliflower (and also cabbage and collards, and to a lesser extent, kale). Cruciferous vegetables are tricky....like fruit, they start out starchy but the starches gradually turn to sugar, especially once they are exposed to cold. So I had mixed results early on; the only cruciferous vegetables I could eat reliably were broccoli and watercress. I had mostly good results with kale, but it wasn't as reliable.

Next, the walnuts. I eat walnuts now and am fairly consequence free (but I can experience mild stiffness if I overdo it). But early on they were very problematic. In fact all nuts were out, even blanched almonds. Given your issues with IBS, nuts might have to go for now.

If you're worried about calories, maybe try upping your fat intake. I know there's lots of talk about limiting fat, but it's the best way to really test this diet without starving and losing a ton of weight.

Lastly, I'm really pleased to see you're starting a probiotic. Probiotics are the cornerstone of my success, and I'm pretty sure that it, along with periodic 10-14 day courses of antibacterials like berberine (or peppermint oil or oil of oregano) have allowed me to eat more starch, including foods I couldn't dream of tolerating in the first 6 months (e.g. carrots, dates, cauliflower, apples, cheese, grapes, etc.)

So hang in there! Get strict, stay with it, take large doses of your probiotics, and hopefully you'll not only improve your pain levels and your IBS, you'll also improve your starch tolerance and be able to eat some of the foods you can't eat now.

Good luck!
_________________________
Suspected USpA. HLA B27, xray, u/sound, blood tests all -ve. Ancient history of plantar fasciitis, SI joint pain, knee arthritis. Recent history of tendinitis, neck pain, debilitating finger pain and stiffness (especially mornings). No diagnosis, no meds.

2010 - stopped eating dairy
2012 - stopped eating wheat
2014 - stopped eating all grains
Jan 2017 - discovered NSD - 98% improvement in symptoms, continually amazed by my results, wish I'd found kickAS sooner

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#519455 - 02/17/19 04:54 AM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Kellybells]
Bazel Offline
New_Member

Registered: 12/28/18
Posts: 20
Dear Kellybells,

Thank you for your positivity and thorough reply! I will remove the nuts, the rice and cauliflower.

I have some additional questions, if you could awnser:


-Do you rotate probiotics with antifungals?
-Whats your opinion on honey? It helps me gain weight and is 'said' to have antifungal properties.
-Which fruits are generally safe? Or is there no such thing? I do test my rapberries, but I am unsure because some are always riper than others. I am thinking of Kiwis as a replacement.
-Do you have any ideas about vegetables that people almost never have problems with? I'll do shiitake, celery, celery root and, but I feel I need more.
-Whats your opinion on red meat? I can digest it more easily than chicken. But I read that red meat is inflammatory.
-If I remove these foods, how long should it take for my body to respond?

Thanks!

-Bas

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#519456 - 02/17/19 10:34 AM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Bazel]
Kellybells Offline
First_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 168
Loc: Canada
Hi Bazel, great questions!

1. I rotate probiotics and antibacterials/antifungals: 6-8 weeks of probiotics followed by 10-14 days antibacterial. I mostly use berberine (500mg 2x day) and mix it up with oil of oregano and peppermint oil. I did that for 1.5 years until I was pain free and improved my starch tolerance. Then just stuck to probiotics (they are crucial). I just started the protocol again after a very cheaty Xmas. Has worked wonders.

2. Fruits can be tricky, as they convert starches to sugar as they ripen. Early on I found all berries, including raspberries very reliable. I mainly ate frozen berries - during winter the frozen tend to be riper than fresh. Kiwis are a great choice - I ate them every day early on and they are in season right now. Also very easy to check for ripeness.

The riper the fruit, the less starch it will have. So fruits you can ripen on the counter are good, so long as you wait for ripeness: avocado, melons, pineapple, kiwis, mango, papaya.

Fruits that were NOT ok for me: oranges, apples, grapes, grapefruit.

3. Everyone's a bit different, as we all start with slightly different starch tolerances. I was super sensitive early on so my super safe veg list was short: zucchini, spinach, red peppers, celery, asparagus, artichokes, okra, watercress, onions - i ate these daily and only these until I got pain to 0-2.

Mostly ok veg were broccoli, kale, rutabaga, celery root, tomatoes and mushrooms. I think sometimes I had reactions after these but not always. I ate these a few times a week after I got pain down to 1-2. I also made sure everything was realy well cooked, on assumption I would digest it better.

Absolute no gos were carrots, squash, cabbage, cauliflower. I can eat them now but not early on.

4. Red meat is a staple for me. They say its inflammatory but i feel much better when I eat it. It is high in calories which is really important early on. I especially like cuts with joints and collagen: ribs, shanks, stewing beef, pork necks, etc. Pork ribs are a staple - I slow cook for 7 hours, then save the meat and the broth, which is rich in gelatin from the joints. Super easy, super tasty, very filling and very healing For the joints (I still eat ribs 2-3 x a week).

5. Hard to predict response, as we all start from different degrees of starch tolerance and joint damage (joint damage is very, very slow to heal). I noticed a big difference after my first two weeks as pain went from 8 to 3. But the last of the pain was slow to go, as it took me another month or two to really figure out my safe foods (it was a very frustrating time! I'd have what I thought was a perfect day only to wake up stiff again). I would feel good then not, and fluctuate from high pain to 0-1. The protocol also really helped - after a few rounds and six months I was habitually at 0-1.

Good luck!! Feel free to ask anything. I found the first few months very tough. But in the end it has changed my And after 2 years I can now eat things that were completely off the table at first.


Edited by Kellybells (02/17/19 12:50 PM)
_________________________
Suspected USpA. HLA B27, xray, u/sound, blood tests all -ve. Ancient history of plantar fasciitis, SI joint pain, knee arthritis. Recent history of tendinitis, neck pain, debilitating finger pain and stiffness (especially mornings). No diagnosis, no meds.

2010 - stopped eating dairy
2012 - stopped eating wheat
2014 - stopped eating all grains
Jan 2017 - discovered NSD - 98% improvement in symptoms, continually amazed by my results, wish I'd found kickAS sooner

Top
#519457 - 02/17/19 11:35 AM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Bazel]
Kellybells Offline
First_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 168
Loc: Canada
In spite of my super long post, I missed your question about honey! I have no issues with it and eat it is my sweetener of choice: in my coffee, in desserts, to sweeten cranberry sauce, etc. I even have the occasional spoonful, though I wouldn't say I eat a lot of it. My partner, who used to experience severe IBS before he gave up wheat and dairy, eats it far more often than I do and entirely without consequence.

I've seen lots of people here swear off sugar and feel better but that has not been my experience. Simple sugars are readily digested, and even sucrose is very quick to breakdown, so it doesn't make sense to me that they are food for bacteria in the same way starch is.

But I seem to be an outlier here when it comes to sugar and red meat! Lots of people opt for low fat meats like fish and chicken and cut out sugar altogether. I honestly don't know how they do it, as it's very hard to get enough calories once starch is gone (I'm very active and need to keep my calories near 2000). I eat both without consequence, no pain at all, and find both more reliable than veg and fruit. I am reliably pain free now, so plan to stick to my guns on this one. And FWIW my blood lipids haven't changed at all pre- and post-diet.

I know you mentioned Candida as a possible factor, and maybe it is. But your IBS is almost certainly related to your AS. There's a very strong correlation between those conditions. The NSD should be just as helpful for your IBS as your AS.

Can't emphasize enough the importance of probiotics, especially if you also have IBS. My personal favourite is Garden of Life Primal Defense ULTRA. It contains b.subtilis, a bacteria known to help with severe diarrhea. But there are lots of high quality choices out there and people posting here have reported success with a wide range of options, so there is no right one.


Edited by Kellybells (02/17/19 11:35 AM)
_________________________
Suspected USpA. HLA B27, xray, u/sound, blood tests all -ve. Ancient history of plantar fasciitis, SI joint pain, knee arthritis. Recent history of tendinitis, neck pain, debilitating finger pain and stiffness (especially mornings). No diagnosis, no meds.

2010 - stopped eating dairy
2012 - stopped eating wheat
2014 - stopped eating all grains
Jan 2017 - discovered NSD - 98% improvement in symptoms, continually amazed by my results, wish I'd found kickAS sooner

Top
#519597 - 04/30/19 10:20 AM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Bazel]
Dotyisle Offline


Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 9430
Loc: Rosario, Argentina
Hello Bazel,

From my experience early on trying to get pain free... following foods from your list all created pain for me.

- Cauliflower, mushrooms, glutinous rice
- Unsure about coconut

If you are eating the above yet.. I would call the diet Low Starch and not No Starch.

I also avoided supplements for some time... never really found any supplements that I can attest to that made a huge difference. Only thing that worked for me with healing gut I would say are probiotics.. but have to be the expensive brands that are made correctly (Natrens Healthy Trinity when I lived in States). Now I eat all natural sauerkraut or Kefir and it works even better.

Hope you are doing better.

Regards,

Tim
_________________________
AS may win some battles, but I will win the war.

KONK - Keep ON Kicking

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#519601 - 05/01/19 03:20 PM Re: two month NSD update: limited results [Re: Dotyisle]
Bazel Offline
New_Member

Registered: 12/28/18
Posts: 20
Thanks for your reply Tim. I will make an update post soon. I have indeed removed all the ingredients you name, with some result.

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