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#511619 - 07/02/15 05:01 PM Re: Gut bacteria and AS [Re: Grumpyally]
MollyC1i Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 9701
Loc: Brittany, France (since Nov 08...
Good article, well spotted Grumpally. Thanks for posting
_________________________
MollyC1i - Riding OutAS

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#517171 - Yesterday at 05:03 AM Re: Gut bacteria and AS [Re: Lindyap]
Robin_H Offline
New_Member

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 16
Loc: Hubei, China
Hi All!

Regarding poop transplants (FMT -- fecal microbiota transplant)...

The bottom line of my following post is that a fecal transplant could be short lived so long as a person's body likes killing the "good guys".

I did not read all the referenced articles but http://thepowerofpoop.com/why-fmt-doesnt-always-work/ had the scoop on the poop! Besides checking the health of the donor and their poop I did not see anything about "donor matching" to avoid rejection. I wonder how important that would be. Trying the feces from just any healthy donor might just be too much of a crap-shoot after all the time and preparation in the protocol. The healthy donor microbiome may not even be compatible with the recipient!

Each person will support a different family of microbiomes. Depending on the season, what a person is eating, who gave them their first French kiss, what their boss is like, each person's microbiome will vary within the family that their immune system has learned to accept in the beginnings of life.

Furthermore, there may be no more "matches" since the recipients system has become very rejectful.

We can't assume that we have "bad bacteria" that we want to get of; it's a partial truth. Something may have changed in some of us that has made us unfriendly to certain good guys. I was exposed to things ranging from industrial toxins at work to viruses and bacteria from sea water in a scuba diving mishap that my body has never seen before thus possibly triggering my immune system to attack the good guys that reduce inflammation (put in its simplest terms.); the problem is not necessarily having entities that directly increase levels inflammation. I've recently read that there are considerations to recategorize AS as an auto-inflamatory disease instead of an auto-immune disease. But if the immune system is attacking bacteria that we need then I would consider that auto-immune, and a consequence is inflammation.

If my body does not "unlearn" its hatred for the good guys then I would have to take large doses of probiotics on a life-long basis. My immune system would be busy killing them, but for as long as I take the probiotics the good guys are there providing me with the benifical effect. A fecal transplant would be short lived so long as my body likes killing the good guys.

My hope is that if the triggers are removed for long enough and my body repairs itself then my immune system would have had long enough to forget its hatred for the good guys. This could be possible in rare instances but we are more likely going to need medicine.

But still... maybe the microbiome is not the problem but their byproducts are. I can not clearly bring the effects of starch into this picture.

PS: I was in remission for a period of time while taking a brand of probiotics that had single doses of 50 billion CFUs. There were many other factors that I was doing then and many of which I am doing now but are not working. I long to get those probitoics again.
_________________________
Mis-diagnosed with fibromyalgia in mid-20s.
Vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s (no diagnosis).
During age 47 (2015) developed complete axial inflammation (started from from skull and progressed down to sacrum). Included psoriasis. Trigger in scull was reverse blockage in a SCUBA mishap. Straw that broke the camels back was over use of NSAIDs. NSD works well but not perfect. Strong involvement between symptoms and gut integrity.

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#517173 - Yesterday at 07:46 AM Re: Gut bacteria and AS [Re: Robin_H]
DavidP Offline
Sergeant_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 598
Loc: Sale, Victoria, Australia
In AS there don't appear to be any readily identifiable antibodies formed that are associated with disease (compared to RA which has Rheumatoid Factor (Abs) and Anti-CCL). Instead in AS the innate arm of the immune system (also called cell mediated immune system) is causing the problem. The innate immune system is designed to make a rapid response to an infectious threat - no antibodies are produced. By contrast, the humoral immune system is slower acting and is characterised by the production of antibodies (hence also called antibody mediated immunity). It is for this reason that some people refer to AS as an auto-inflammatory disease.

Once the body 'decides' that a component of the microbiome which it once tolerated, but which it has subsequently come to regard as a pathogen, then this can't be 'unlearned'. Unfortunately, there are cells called memory T cells which never forget - they are just waiting to see that bacteria again before unleashing an inflammatory storm.

Removing starch is probably putting the offending bacteria into dormancy so that the immune system sees nothing that offends it - until the next donut comes along.

Cheers David
_________________________
Dx Oct 2006 B27+ undifferentiated spondlyarthropathy (uSpA) with mild sebhorrhoeic dermatitis and mild Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) controlled by NSD since 2007.

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#517178 - Yesterday at 11:25 AM Re: Gut bacteria and AS [Re: Grumpyally]
Georgina_C Offline
Lurker

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 1
Loc: UK
Hello, I'm wondering how you make coconut kefir? I tried using water kefir grains and it tasted awful. If using milk grains, do they need to be refreshed in dairy milk periodically? Used to drink lots of water kefir but have been advised to stop due to the residual sugar, just in case. Similarly have stopped kombucha and JUN.
_________________________
Seronegative Spondyloarthropy (diagnosed 5/2017 after 10 years chronic tendinitis). Mainly peripheral. HLA-B27 -ve.
Paleo (2012), Keto, LSD (5/2017). Yet to figure problem foods. Avoid dairy, sugar, fruit. Lots of broth, sauerkraut. Post meals on Happy Body app.
Using functional medicine practitioner - treating Kp with Caprylic acid, Paramicrocidin, plus Butyrin, proteolytic enzymes. Previously Cephalexin, Berberine w no success. Limited success w Freedom Cleanse Restore
Dru yogi

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#517182 - Today at 03:35 AM Re: Gut bacteria and AS [Re: DavidP]
Robin_H Offline
New_Member

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 16
Loc: Hubei, China
Thank you for the clarification David even though it burst my bubble! HAHAHA

So, the behavior of AS is due to the innate immune system which will not unlearn that there are inhabitants in my gut that feed on the broken down starch, produce cytotoxins that get into my blood stream causing certain tissue types to become inflamed. Or something like that; close enough. Is it only the adaptive immune system that can forget?

But why do I need booster shots for tetanus or rabies but don't need booster shots for hepatitis? Why do people sometimes loose allergies? Can some part of the immune system "forget"?

Peace!
Kevin
_________________________
Mis-diagnosed with fibromyalgia in mid-20s.
Vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s (no diagnosis).
During age 47 (2015) developed complete axial inflammation (started from from skull and progressed down to sacrum). Included psoriasis. Trigger in scull was reverse blockage in a SCUBA mishap. Straw that broke the camels back was over use of NSAIDs. NSD works well but not perfect. Strong involvement between symptoms and gut integrity.

Top
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