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#506161 08/31/14 09:43 AM
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I understand how antibiotics can assist one into getting relief from a flare-up, as the right antibiotics can kill the klebsiela bacteria in the gut.


However, I cannot really understand how/why it should be part of AS treatment, considering the following:

1. Klebsiella is very common in nature, so as soon as you stop taking antibiotics, some will find their way into your gut again, and proliferate if it finds the same conditions as before.
2. Antibiotics will also kill good bacteria in you gut. Yes, you can take some probiotics, but these contain only two or three kinds of bacteria - a healthy gut should have many more.
3. Many bacteria are becoming resistant to antibiotics, because antibiotics are generally overused. So apart from being bad from a public health point of view, it seems quite possible to me that some people who take antibiotics for AS, are themselves at risk of weakening their own immune system and becoming the birth place of a drug resistant strain of Klebsiella and possibly other nasties.

If the NSD/LSD diet cannot fully fix the bacterial balance in the gut by itself, it seems very logical to me that a fecal transplant, as opposed to antibiotics, should be the logical next step.

Please let me know if there is a weakness in my argument.

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I can't really address most of the discussion (NSD, antibiotics)...I'll leave that to others.

But I will say that I am very excited by the research done on Fecal Transplants.

Here in the U.S., they are only "allowed" for C diff infections, serious C diff infections that can't be treated any other way.

My hope is that over time, they will be allowed for other chronic illnesses.

Too, I am very excited by the "fecal transplant" pill method....that's what I want to try some day.

I do wonder one thing though. If our appendix is there to store bacteria, then could it "reinfect" us with our bad bacteria that are stored there.

I haven't read anyone else, in forums, in scientific journal articles, etc ask that question, but its something that comes to mind for me, after reading what they think the role of the appendix is (if I can find that paper, i'll link it later in this thread).

for C diff patients, they didn't naturally have / weren't born with the wrong bacteria, they just got infected with C diff, so get the C diff out and rebalance them to a point before C diff.

But for us, who were born this way (well, for me, I know that's true, GI issues from the time I was a baby, says my mom, and I remember even before grade school, all that prune juice just to keep me going), would my appendix repopulate the bad bacteria? I just don't know. I can't imagine that the scientists working on this haven't thought of that, if its something to be concerned with. So maybe its not a concern.

I guess the question always is, "OK, this sounds really good, so what could the negatives be?" Brainstorm the pros and cons.



sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)
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Hi, wordbeter:

There are several things incomplete about Your valid concerns:

Quote:

1. Klebsiella is very common in nature, so as soon as you stop taking antibiotics, some will find their way into your gut again, and proliferate if it finds the same conditions as before.


There are two types of antibiotics we should be taking in cycles: Bactericidal and bacteriostatic. Bactericidal agents will begin to eliminate actual colonies resident within interstitial spaces and supporting structures proximal to the gut (mesentery, musculature, etc). These become independent of intestinal contents and provide some elevated AS activity that is 'ambient,' due to the flux of AS-genic (even when dead) bacteria sloughing off from the parent colonies. This constantly increasing level of AS activity, independent of diet, will make us more sensitive to minor variations in that diet. Regret these agents can 'select-out' resistive individuals very rapidly, so ultra-strict diet should be followed while taking these. Gary K. had AS and found Cipro decreased his symptoms enough to begin playing tennis again (he had great athletic skills) and this remission lasted just about a year, (perhaps) until the resistive bacteria repopulated the colonies and his "AS returned with a vengeance!" He had ignored diet, a mistake I had no intention of repeating. Next, the bacteriostatic agents are much less likely to produce resistive strains, but they can lower the bacterial population enough to make a major difference. All drugs have side effects, and should be employed with considerable caution, but it is not our specific problem to worry about disrupting the public health--the physicians, hospitals, airlines, open-borders, schools, etc have been doing this for many years; we cannot make any noticeable impact, either way. If a drug works, I will use it within my enclosed system and not interfere with another person's right to avoid that specific agent.

Quote:
2. Antibiotics will also kill good bacteria in you gut. Yes, you can take some probiotics, but these contain only two or three kinds of bacteria - a healthy gut should have many more.


To eliminate AS, I was willing to kill all the bacteria in my gut--I am a mass-murderer of bacteria in my gut and I have no conscience issues; I do not lament over their demise and sleep very well at night. In my orientation, I want to completely clear the slate and although I kind of believe that "a healthy gut *should* have many [good bacteria]," WHO determines which are "good?" Ask the average doctor, and Kp are our friends! How do they get there in the first place? I have no doubt that they will repopulate on their own, including our nemesis bacterium.

Quote:
3. Many bacteria are becoming resistant to antibiotics, because antibiotics are generally overused. So apart from being bad from a public health point of view, it seems quite possible to me that some people who take antibiotics for AS, are themselves at risk of weakening their own immune system and becoming the birth place of a drug resistant strain of Klebsiella and possibly other nasties.


The "library" of pathogens we have been exposed to, constantly referenced by our immune system, is contained within our gut; this is the seat of the majority of our "immune system." It is possible that antibiotics could cause our systems to forget how to manufacture antibodies, but so does the natural progression of our immune systems--we need tetanus boosters periodically because of this. If we really want to avoid resistive strains of Kp, it is very important to stay well away from all hospitals; this is the number one drug-resistant germ found on surfaces of furnishings and equipment there already. I recognize that I am using broad-spectrum agents, and Kp are not the only pathogens that I am affecting. Public health issue already covered, but I have to be concerned about MY health and try not to have any impact upon the public's health: "If you like your health, you can keep your health!"

The fecal transplant might be an option, but a better approach would be, with widespread acceptance of the Kp-cause of AS, MACROPHAGE therapy. This is one of the reasons I promote my own experiences as support for Ebringer's work; the medical community must eventually come around in the face of ever-mounting evidence (scientific and anecdotal), and better treatments will then be developed.

HEALTH,
John

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Hi Sue

Thanks, yes, the science of the microbiome is taking off and going mainstream in a big way. Just the other day, the Australian public broadcaster, the ABC showed a two part series called "Gut reaction", where they discussed gut health as central to a large number of chronic diseases - even autism and diabetes. They showed a woman who had Crohn's disease (or ulcerative colitis), who had to go to the toilet 30 times a day, but was cured with a fecal transplant.

You can download it as two mp3's here:
Part 1: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4067184.htm
Part 2: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4070977.htm

there is also some more here:
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/gut_reaction_part_1/

My hope is that the pill version you mention, will be available soon.

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Hi John

Thanks.
What you write seem convincing enough - if any is incorrect I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify it. In fact I do share your sentiment of wanting to be a mass-murderer of Klebsiella, but I also want to understand what the overall effect will be.

So if I want to do the antibiotics thing, my other problem is how to convince doctors to prescribe it. The doctors I've come across in Australia are pretty authoritarian and also not scientifically minded in my opinion. For example my GP scoffed at the idea that the NSD can work, saying he doesn't believe "starch causes arthritis". I could see that it was useless to explain to him that that isn't exactly what the LSD/NSD people are saying.

I have tried many doctors - also before coming to Australia. I'm getting to the point where I'd rather stick with the current bad one than risk moving to a possibly worse one.

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Hi, wordbeter:

I made the decision long ago to never allow doctors stand in the way of my health.

When I was in Maxico, The Philippines, and India, I could purchase any antibiotic I wanted, over counter. In USA, I can order these agents from overseas (they come with some kind of suggestion about laws (I don't let them stand in my way, either) not being aggressively enforced and the penalties are nearly non-existent; the police (can) get in big trouble confiscating our property here. Basically, a very gray area of the loose coalition of medical guilds/legal mafioso/nefarious government agencies.

HOWEVER, The Road Back Foundation has a list of physicians willing to use antibiotics to help treat autoimmune diseases, so even if after careful study this is a problem, I highly recommend contacting them.

Professor Ebringer's brother, Roland, is a rheumatologist in Melbourne I believe, and he might be able to set a behind-the-times recalcitrant physician upon the correct pathway...or refer You to someone able to help in this regard.

G'Day,
John

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I have not tried antibiotics to kill off the bacteria for reasons you mention.. I am fearful of what may develop.

For that reason I stick with NSD and supplement with friendly bacteria by eating sauerkraut and yogurt with probiotics each day.

I am slowly improving and can handle some starch now... at some point I will test incorporating even more. But for now I am happy where i am at.

Tim


AS may win some battles, but I will win the war.

KONK - Keep ON Kicking
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Just in, and of pertinent interest :

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140828170011.htm?

Possible bacterial drivers of IBD identified
Date:
August 28, 2014
Source:
Yale University
Summary:
A handful of bacterial culprits have been identified that may drive inflammatory bowel diseases such as Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, using patients' own intestinal immune responses as a guide.

A new study by Yale University researchers has identified potential bacterial drivers of inflammatory bowel disease.
Credit: Patrick Lynch

Yale University researchers have identified a handful of bacterial culprits that may drive inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD) such as Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, using patients' own intestinal immune responses as a guide.

The findings are published Aug. 28 in the journal Cell.
Trillions of bacteria exist within the human intestinal microbiota, which plays a critical role in the development and progression of IBD. Yet it's thought that only a small number of bacterial species affect a person's susceptibility to IBD and its potential severity.
"A handful of bad bacteria are able to attain access to the immune system and get right at the gut," said Richard Flavell, the Sterling Professor of Immunobiology at the Yale School of Medicine. "If you look at the bacteria to which we have made an immune response, you can begin to find these bad actors."
Flavell's research team focused on antibody coatings on the surface of bacteria. In particular, Yale researchers looked at bacteria with high concentrations of an antibody coating called Immunoglobulin A (IgA).
"The coating is our body's attempt to neutralize the bacteria," Flavell said. "It binds to the bad bacteria. We only make these IgA responses to a limited number of organisms."
He and his team confirmed a correlation between high levels of IgA coating and inflammatory responses in the human intestine. To do this, the team collected "good" and "bad" bacteria from a small group of patients and transplanted them into mice. In healthy mice, there was no influence on intestinal inflammation; in mice with induced colitis, those with the suspected "bad" bacteria showed signs of excessive inflammation and other IBD symptoms.
Flavell warned that more research is necessary to learn how many bacterial species fall into the "bad" category and whether those populations are common to all IBD patients or are unique to each patient.
But the study's results indicate that anti-bacterial therapies for IBD are possible, Flavell said. Such anti-bacterial approaches might include highly specific antibiotics, vaccines, and probiotics.
"We believe an anti-bacterial strategy has a place in treating IBD," Flavell said.
Story Source:
The above story is based on materials provided by Yale University. The original article was written by Jim Shelton. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.
Journal Reference: Immunoglobulin A Coating Identifies Colitogenic Bacteria in Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Cell, 2014; 158 (5): 1000 DOI: 10.1016/j.cell.2014.08.006
Cite This Page:
MLA APA Chicago
Yale University. "Possible bacterial drivers of IBD identified." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 28 August 2014. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140828170011.htm>.

cat


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Thank you John - your attitude inspires me. If my disease continued as it did for the last 22 years, I would definitely not have gone for antibiotics. But now it seems something has changed for the worse.
I absolutely believe the Klebsiella exist throughout my body - not only in the gut.
So I am ready to to try this.

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coming into this discussion a bit late, but i'd like to remind everyone that kleb forms biofilms, and is quite resistant to antibiotics. please do some research on breaking down biofilms to maximize your efforts (lots of lyme disease patients talk about this as part of their treatment)
And also, for concerns about antibiotic-resistance, look into "pulsing" your doses of antibiotics-taking breaks between doses. it's a newish thing that i think most haven't heard about- it leaves the bacteria unable to form resistance to the antibiotic, and is more effective than just taking it from beginning to end, as we are "supposed to".


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