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#511009 - 05/19/15 03:36 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: nsddude]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
Hi nsddude,

>> found a product online .. Jarrow Formulas NattoMax

I don't think this supplement would work.. it looks to be just the nattokinase enzyme, and not the B Subtilis microbe. So nope, this won't work at all I'm afraid frown

The easiest way to get it is to find an Asian grocer that stocks some japanese stuff. Do a search on google maps in your area and call some of them.

Baruch mentioned wanting to try isolating the B Subtilis from the soybean by soaking the beans in water. A brief soak I suppose as otherwise starch will slowly seep out.

I only ate one or two teaspoons at a time when I started. I didn't have any reaction at the time! And I was definitely starch sensitive still, so I wouldn't be overly worried.

The most potent way to get the B Subtilis is to make your own at home, that way it will be fresh and very active. I bought some Nattomoto starter culture off eBay and I intend to try making my own at home in an electric yoghurt maker (well.. actually I have tried already failed, but I am not giving up yet). You can also use frozen Natto from the asian grocer as a starter.

Hope some more people will be game to try Natto as an experiment smile
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#511011 - 05/19/15 03:55 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: boz]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
Hi Boz,

>> There is several natto supplements out there

Please don't bother with anything that says "nattokinase" as that is just the enzyme and lacks the beneficial microbe. Search around some Asian grocers and you should eventually see it. Thus far all the Natto I have seen sold commercially looks kinda like this:

[img]http://www.japancentre.com/images/resources/images/images/5221/large.jpg?1273067848[/img]

Ehhh... I can't insert pictures? Oh well just click the link! smile
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#511103 - 05/26/15 04:44 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
boz Offline
Active_Member

Registered: 05/04/15
Posts: 63
Loc: Norway
Aha! I will be buying a yoghurt maker and some natto starter, and try to brew up some natto myself wink
Found cheap yoghurt/natto machine and starter on ebay.
_________________________
Norway

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#511110 - 05/26/15 10:59 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: Dotyisle]
faz Offline
Lurker

Registered: 08/01/14
Posts: 1
Guys

How long do you notice a difference once on the NSD diet?
WHta do you take for your energy as i am dying with no energy here!!! please help

Faz has AS and from London

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#513759 - 01/22/16 05:30 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
NALF Offline
New_Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 4
Any update from the NATTO eaters?

I have not yet began the no starch diet, still in the "information gathering" phase. I'm in pain for years now but I had 4 episodes where I felt completely cured! It did not last long but it was MAGICAL! I started a journal to log everything I eat and how I feel to find out what is this magical ingredient. Maybe some asian food with natto? Who knows!

I am still reluctant to change my diet because...
1- I am not convinced (yet) it is the problem.
2- how will I find out this magical ingredient if I keep eating the same no starch food over and over. See my point?

Anyway, thanks all for your contribution, it gives me hope.

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#518200 - 02/04/18 06:12 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: NALF]
Robin_H Offline
First_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/13/15
Posts: 162
Loc: Hubei, China
*---------- THREAD SUMMARY

The positive tone of this thread lasted from 2014-06-20 to 2014-12-11 (six months) and centered around the powerful, starch tolerance effect of the fermented food called Natto. Then Zark became uncertain as to what caused his tolerance of unrefined, unprocessed starch and beer. They had to be consumed in moderation -- no binging. By January 2015 he was mostly confident that the introduction of fermented foods was important.

The micro-organisms in fermented foods destroy other bacteria in the gut and take up their space. The microbes in fermented foods also produce compounds that increases the body's natural defenses to pathogens such as viruses, bacteria, fungi,... Source: http://www.life-enthusiast.com/bacillus-subtilis-story-a-3835.html

Almost a year after the thread was started others in the thread also confirmed their positive experience of Natto giving them starch tolerance. However, FredSonoma had to stop eating it because he felt that it was having a negative impact on his digestion but it was not creating joint issues. He had to eat the Natto with EM-1 (a probiotic for plants and soil.)

The orginal poster (zark) suspected that the controversial anti-fungal pharmaceutical called Lufenuron was also an important contributor to healing the gut and getting into remission. That makes sense since fungus is so hard to control and probably is a major player in keeping the gut damaged and dysfunctional.

Many participants in the thread (zark, MarkyT & FredSonoma) reported that Natto made them starch tolerant. Natto is a fermented food. Aside from the addition of microbes to the gut and immune enhancement mentioned above fermentation reduces the amount of gut-irritating and nutrient robbing phytic acid while actually increasing the amount of protein, minerals and bacteria. The added bacteria probably add to the variety of species that will muscle out the bad microbes.

Fatigue and/or anxiety was reported to occur within a few hours after eating starch sometimes while on the Natto diet. I would remark that even with no pain that fatigue or anxiety would be a bad sign that the body is over-taxed via a reaction of the immune system to the bad microbes that are feeding.

Zerk observed that deep fried starch items (some instant noodles and fried foods) had a significant, and the strongest effect on creating painful AS symptoms two hours after eating. He speculates that the palm oil in the instant noodle ingredients may be a trigger because it is modified (hydrogenated). He very likely is correct that being processed is a factor.

I suspect that the strong AS symptom trigger might have to do with the high temperatures at which the starch is cooked in oil resulting in a large amount of lipopolysaccharides (LPS) -- cooking a carbohydrate in an oil at high temperatures creates LPS (steaming or boiling is better than frying).

When some immune cells are exposed to LPS up-regulation of TLR-4 and TLR-5 occur. This triggers the release of cytokines from the immune cells and the cytokines cause inflammation in other cells. LPS is found on the cell walls of gram negative bacteria of which Klebseila and other suspected AS bacterial triggers are.

This makes me wonder how much fats, sugars, proteins and starches should be separated in the diet. I would group sugars and starches together and I have read from multiple sources to not mix sugar with fats. This sounds like many desserts. Perhaps a sugar with a cream on bananas is safe but not a heated combination.

I speculate that deep-fried noodles might also have a property different from boiled noodles. That property might not allow the noodles to undergo the retrograde process while cooling in which the noodles revert from the non-resistant form to a resistant form. The resistant form is digested less in the small intestine but more-so in the large intestine; this might be good for SIBO sufferers to know whom need to reduce the amount of available starch in the small intestine while still getting starch to the microbes in the large intestine.

NOTE: If the microbes in the large intestine are chronically starved due to an NSD then they will naturally migrate up into the small intestine where they do not belong and cause damage and symptoms. Do not starve the microbes in the large intestine. Furthermore, having the microbes that belong in the large intestine in the small intestine will create inflammation that will cause the ileocecal valve to malfunction and allow microbes to migrate between the small and large intestines at will.

charlieiportugal reported that after going on a not-super-strict NSD at age 25 he achieved total remission in a couple of years. After all that time he got even more daring and tried beer occasionally and started eating more foods with small amounts of starch. Within a few weeks subtle AS symptoms returned and so he went back on NSD and AS symptoms quickly subsided. Hey says, "the moral of the story if there is one, is that even after 15 years starch free, I still cannot touch starch and I am quite happy to accept that I will never be able to eat starch in my life."

*---------- ADDITIONS REGARDING THE IMPORTANCE OF SOLUBLE STARCH

In my readings I have the impression that eating SOLUBLE starch is beneficial to healing the microvilli of the gut thus maintaining a healthy gut biofilm that protects the microvilli. Without the microvilli the beneficial biofilm would simply slough off and leave the gut membrane exposed to pathogens and irritating molecules.

Eliminating all starch long-term or indefinitely is detrimental -- flora diversity and numbers go down and the deterioration of the gut lining will follow. Also without a good energy replacement (like fat) the body might begin to waste and weaken.

There is no such thing as an "essential" sugar and new evidence is showing that a high starch -- perhaps primarily a high sugar diet -- is a great contributor to illness in USA. Theoretically we can survive without any starch because our liver can make all the sugar that we need but that would be neglecting the biofilm that we depend on. There must have always been some starch in our gut to support our microbiota.

What follows is in contradiction to Charlieiportugal's findings and the experience of some others. Perhaps a No Starch Diet is good at the very beginning to get AS and LGS symptoms under control but then slowly add back a single starch type, only one for at least two meals a day for a few days to see what the reaction is. The idea is to hopefully get lucky and feed the good bacteria with a starch type that the bad bug specific to you does not prefer. Hopefully the bad bug will get starved and crowded out. Keep adding new starch types and rotate them.

*---------- THE INSTANT EVERYTHING CULTURE

Pouring instant porridge or oats out of a Quaker Oats packet is convenient but not as healthy as we are led to believe. The instant oats have been ground very small so that they cook fast. But this small size increases their surface area and hence the rate and amount of fiber and starch that microbes have access to. The result is a spike in microbe population sizes and their byproducts. When the gut was strong these spikes rarely phased us. But now we probably have patches of weeds in our gut just waiting for a rich food.

Going back to cooking whole, organic grains and seeds from scratch through soaking and fermenting not only has the nutritional benefits mentioned above but restores an old psychological component of life that has been lost in the instant gratification world we now live in.

I have started eating millet that has been soaked for 24 hours. The texture and taste is so much richer than anything that comes out of an overly sweet instant pack. Having to plan meals a day or two ahead of eating time creates a positive anticipation for a meal that I really like. That wait is just one more positive thought that I hold in my mind for many hours. Accumulating this kind of anticipation for rewards that are not instant will have a positive effect on my mood and even digestion!

Eating a store bought fermented food like olives, pickles, sauerkraut, natto, etc., may not be enough when the gut is damaged but only good for maintenance. Taking those store bought fermented foods and culturing them by keeping them at room temperature and maybe adding nutrients for the existing microorganisms will improve the microbial colonies but only if it has not been pasteurized or irradiated.

I came here to report my satisfaction with adding millet to my diet but first I searched for "starch" in the subject line and found this thread. I think it deserves to be brought back to life.

Keep experimenting and finding starch types that you can add. Variety is the spice of life! Good luck!
_________________________
HLA-B27 neg; Mis-diagnosed with fibromyalgia in mid-20s.
Vague AS symptoms in 20s and early 30s (no diagnosis).
During age 47 (2015) from NSAID use developed complete axial inflammation (started from from skull and progressed down to sacrum). Included psoriasis. Trigger in scull was reverse blockage in a SCUBA mishap in 2013. Straw that broke the camels back was over use of NSAIDs. NSD works well but not perfect. Strong involvement between symptoms and gut integrity.

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#518203 - 02/04/18 10:16 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
Kellybells Offline
Journeyman_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 110
Loc: Toronto, ON
Thanks for finding and bumping this thread up!

I did a quick scan and thread seems inconclusive that natto alone can induce starch tolerance, but natto does have some features that are really worth noting.

1. The bacteria in natto is bacillus subtilis, a soil based organism known for beneficial effects on the gut and motility, including IBS. It is very different from other fermented foods that contain the more typical lacto-bacteria (e.g sauerkraut, dill pickles, etc.) It is entirely plausible that the bacteria could be an ally in displacing or dampening klebsiella or other offending bacteria. Also, as a SBO, is the kind of bacteria that mitght once have been abundant in our diets but is no longer due to modern hygiene and distance from food production (when's the last time you ate a carrot straight from the garden, or an apple off the ground?)

2. Natto is an amazing source for vitamin K2, possibly the most abundant dietary source. Vitamin K2 helps direct calcium into bones, making it key to bone development and maintenance. This means two potential effects: preventing osteoporosis (by moving calcium into bones) and preventing heart disease (by not letting calcium deposit in arterial walls). Natto also contains an anti-clotting enzyme that may also support better cardiovascular disease outcomes.

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/26770129/
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16614424
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21394493
 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/105/2/426/4637490

3. Preliminary research also suggests that K2 has anti-cancer effects. I thought I had also seen some population-based studies that linked natto consumption to lower rates of cancer, but I can't find it.

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3767046/
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26082424

You can buy the beneficial components of natto as supplements: bacillus subtilis, vitamin k2 (mk-7 form), and nattokinase can all be bought individually, but I tend to prefer whole foods over pills. The thing about natto is that, because it's made from soy beans, it is starchy: 100g contains 4.6g of starch, which is just shy of my personal daily limit of 5g. However, natto is typically sold in small packs of about 46g each, which would mean only 2.12g per serving, which means any one game for trying this out may not end up worse off if they already have a bit of starch tolerance. You can find it in the freezer section of any east asian grocery store, usually sold in packs of 3-4 styrofoam contaners.

It is, however, very much an acquired taste! Both the flavour and especially the texture (slimy, stringy) is not for everyone. I grew to like it prety quickly - once I add a bit of tamari and dijon, I find it quite tasty.  But c9ns8der yourself warned!! I haven't eaten it since I started NSD, but I plan to do a closer read of the thread to see if it's worth trying.
_________________________
Suspected SpA. HLA B27, xray, u/sound, blood tests all -ve. Ancient history of plantar fasciitis, SI joint pain, knee arthritis. Recent history of tendinitis, neck pain, debilitating finger pain and stiffness (especially mornings). No diagnosis, no meds.

2010 - stopped eating dairy
2012 - stopped eating wheat
2014 - stopped eating all grains
Jan 2017 - discovered NSD - 98% improvement in symptoms, continually amazed by my results, wish I'd found kickAS sooner

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