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#506654 - 09/24/14 12:45 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
bettyrawker Offline
Magical_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Oregon
Man, I wish so bad I didn't have the worst inflammatory response to soy! It would make my life so much easier, I would be able to eat out too, without dire consequences (soy bean oil is in EVERYTHING from the salad dressings, to mayo, to grill oil at most restaurants). And I would LOVE to try the natto protocol!!

Maybe I can find a way to get the same ferment on something else, much like I use a chickpea based miso (soy free) in place of traditional miso paste.

At the moment I am super excited about brewing my own probiotic rich jun soda pop though! It's similar to kombucha, except the jun scoby thrives only on green tea and honey, instead of kombucha which consumes black tea and cane sugar. I am going to be doing a blog post on it soon. I notice it really helps with my digestion too. I love the stuff. I did a blog post on the jun root beer I was buying locally, but also in the post link to where I got a jun scoby delivered to my door for less than $10 to make unlimited amounts of probiotic soda. Jun soda info here: http://pureandsimplerecipes.com/2014/05/02/root-beer-float/

I think the probiotics are apart of the full AS treatment plan for sure!
_________________________
I'm now a KICK AS (and Kick IBD) success story!! After going low starch Paleo to heal my gut, I can now eat nearly all starches, grains & foods without inflammation, flare-ups, or pain. I used a modified SCD diet approach (minus dairy! plus cacao ♥). Cheers to healing & thriving again! I blog at http://www.forestandfauna.com/about/

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#506782 - 09/28/14 09:36 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
>> chickpea

I would give it a try making chickpea natto, definitely! You can buy the "nattomoto" starter culture and give it a try. I bought some on ebay, but haven't used it yet (my neighbour keeps giving me more). On second thought I better stick with my neighbours beans as the starter culture.

Perhaps I can dry the beans out and send them in the mail, and you could try that as the starter.

Also..... I think others have done very well healing their gut using homemade sauerkraut(?). Another cultured option to try. I suggest getting someone healthy to touch and press the cabbage - as a starter culture.

>>> the jun scoby thrives only on green tea and honey

Ohhh this sounds fantastic. I'm not very good with sucrose, so maybe jun scoby is a better option. On the other hand, it may be that komucha is just what I need in order to tolerate sucrose properly! Well, have to start making my own cultures. Time to flip a coin perhaps smile

Do you react to miso?
(Sorry you probably told me at some point but my memory isn't so good)
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#506805 - 09/29/14 09:52 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
MORPHEUS Offline
New_Member

Registered: 08/20/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Focsani,Romania
Zark,the questions may seem silly,

1)with the consumption of natto can you tolerate sugar whether it is refind sugar or fruits sugar, any amounts in "common sense" limit ??? same question about red meat ??

2)how long after eating natto you noticed that you don't react to starch ??

3) I noticed in some of your older posts that you used a lot of supplements (rutin,cucurmin,dygestive enzymes - papaya, bromelain, and probiotics from Swanson do you still use them ?? do you think that they contributed in your remission ??

4) Do you stil experience levels of pain and stiffness even if not related to starch, for example: intense exercises, stress,etc.

Thank you.

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#506812 - 09/29/14 08:20 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
1) Sugar - my problem with sugar is really all about fungal issues. When I say I can't tolerate sucrose it is because of these other reactions, and it didn't directly worsen my AS even before Natto (not noticeably at least). However issues which I later found to have fungus as a root cause would worsen : proctitis and prostatitis were the most noticeably worsened, along with the usual skin infections, including dandruff of course. Others may include: night dehydration, sinusitis/rhinitis, brain fog, fatigue (especially after a meal), reduced coordination ...

Red meat - well, I don't have that much trouble with red meat unless I have something sweet with it/or shortly afterwards. I have had trouble digesting fat, and too much meat seems to make me a bit tense. Meat can acidify the urine a bit and that irritates my prostate if already inflamed, but I don't think it is the root cause of that issue.

2) Natto - it was only a couple of days! 4 or 5 days.

3) other supplements - I think I have mentioned the other supplements I have taken this year earlier in the thread? The only other plausible supplements that could contribute to remission were Lufenuron and Mountain Pepper. Indeed it is difficult to be 100% certain, however I did stop the Natto for about a week as soybeans give me eczema.. and my starch intolerance (AS) returned. I started the Natto again and was fine again with starch within 24 hours or less [see: http://auto-immune-diet.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/did-natto-bring-my-immune-disorder-into.html ]. So it seems pretty unlikely for anything else to contribute given the timing.

I realised later that my neighbours have an unusual way of making Natto. They don't add a culture. They just make sure the temperature is right, and the culture gets in from the environment, or from their touch.

4) No pain. However I have noticed that potato crisps and deep fried batter can still make me a little stiff for a few hours. Weird huh? By the next morning I am invariably back to normal and have no significant AS inflammation. My neck is fine, no pain, but the range of movement is still a bit limited by damage as compared to a normal person.

Although I get a mild reaction from eating lots of potato crisps, I find it curious that I can eat baked wedges without issue, and modest amounts of thick cut fries have thus far been fine (although perhaps should retest). I'm thinking the starch, oil and high heat from deep frying combine to create something that ferments badly.
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#506826 - 09/30/14 04:59 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
csphysio Offline
New_Member

Registered: 06/14/14
Posts: 13
Hey Zark,

How much Natto are you eating per day (or per serving?)
The natto I've purchased comes in 40-50 gram containers, which I'd estimate is about 1/2 the size of my iPhone 4S.
I've been consuming 1 container per day for the past 5 days.
Have simultaneously added back a bunch of previously avoided starchy foods.....rice, rice noodles, potato chips, chocolate covered almonds. Noticed a mild increase in pain, but less than I would have expected given the copious amounts of starch I've eaten.

Thanks,

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#506832 - 09/30/14 08:55 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
>> How much Natto are you eating per day (or per serving?)

I was initially eating a teaspoon once or twice a day. At the moment it seems to have settled in to my body and made home there.. I only eat it sporadically now.

>> rice, rice noodles, potato chips, chocolate covered almonds

I have been abusing starch and I notice that starch is bad for my teeth.. and for it to be noticeable in such a short time too :-/ Time for some moderation, so I made myself some tahini bread this morning. Yummm

>> Noticed a mild increase in pain, but less than I would have expected

I would cast a wary eye on those potato chips, particularly if they are the "crisps". I just hope and hope that it really works for you! Good luck !
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#507927 - 12/04/14 10:34 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
belzarek Offline
New_Member

Registered: 02/14/13
Posts: 4
bacillus subtilis(the bacteria in nato) produces amylase that cleaves the starch therefore making it not available for klebsiella i think..

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#507956 - 12/06/14 10:38 AM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: belzarek]
MarkyT Offline
Apprentice_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: belzarek
bacillus subtilis(the bacteria in nato) produces amylase that cleaves the starch therefore making it not available for klebsiella i think..


what about the other starchy foods he can eat, while eating nato ?

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#507992 - 12/09/14 10:59 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
>> bacillus subtilis(the bacteria in nato) produces amylase that cleaves the starch

Hi Belzarek,
OK, nice thinking smile I was actually thinking of Natto from the point of it producing antibiotic-like compounds and killing a particular pathogen. BUT your theory works too, any flora that competes for starch and makes its home in my gut is a good thing, and can help crowd out starch eating pathogens.
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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#507995 - 12/09/14 11:51 PM Re: I can eat starch again [Re: zark]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2482
Loc: NSW, Oz
>> what about the other starchy foods he can eat, while eating nato ?

Hi MarkyT,
Sorry I'm not sure I follow you frown Yes, I have been able to eat amylose starch since using Natto, and before that I was already able to eat amylopectin (about 2 years ago I think I first had some evidence that I could tolerate it)


== UPDATE ==
I ate some instant noodles yesterday as they were apparently the best instant noodles around, so I wanted to try them.. that was a big mistake. About 2 hours later I started to notice some stiffness, and I also felt pretty disgusting, almost nauseous. These instant noodles are bad stuff, but I already knew that and I should've known better. For me I think the main problem is not the junk additives but that they deep fry the noodles - and deep fried starch is really the worst.

The reaction is still significantly muted compared to pre-natto times. But the thing is I ate some natto last night and it isn't working as well this time..? I still have mild stiffness today, again much less a reaction than beforehand but previously it would clear up overnight.

Really don't want to fall back out of being amylose tolerant.. Perhaps it is time to start experimenting with other cultured foods such as sauerkraut.
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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