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#499271 - 01/12/14 02:48 AM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
marion333 Offline
Second_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 225
Loc: France
I've had a blood test done after 6 months NSD and 3 months dairy free as I was worried about deficiencies, as you are.
The only thing that was low was vitamin D, so I've started taking a supplement for that.
Everything else was very good, including vitamin B, magnesium, cholesterol…
My calcium rate was even better than before going off dairy, go figure !
You'll find a lot of calcium in foods like : oily fish, almonds, coconut milk, cruciferous vegetables, oranges…
As for a diet low in carbohydrates, I remember in Carole Sinclair's book she explains that carbohydrates is not actually an essential part of a human diet, and therefore there is no minimal amount you need to have. She gives as an example the Inuit diet, which consume no carbs whatsoever and are very healthy. Their diet obviously is a bit extreme, but if you are having large amounts of veg and fruit you are getting carbohydrates anyway.
If you're worried just have blood work done, it'll put your mind at ease or tell you exactly where you need to supplement.
All the best,
Marion

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#499280 - 01/12/14 08:05 AM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: jroc]
Didier Offline
Second_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 208
Thanks jroc. You may have a point about overall caloric intake. I was surprised, doing some calorie counting this morning, that even foods I considered dense like coconut milk, avocados, olive oil, almonds, etc. aren't that high in calories unless you are eating immense quantities. I might have been getting something like 200-500 calories less per day than supposed to for my weight/age.

Didier


Edited by Didier (01/12/14 08:05 AM)

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#499313 - 01/12/14 04:41 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
karenthebaron Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 35
Loc: Michigan
@Dutchie - ha ha, no, I eat low starch so my daughter doesn't have to go it alone! I worry more about the calcium needed simply because she's still growing. And because that's what moms do.

@Coattails - yes, we use coconut oil and olive oil rather than butter or anything else now. It's just hard to get a teenager to eat anything in a balanced manner, plus she's had a lot of nausea since treatment with NSAIDS. It's slowly improving, but I sometimes wish we hadn't tried them for treatment.

As far as deficiencies, I'm not a nutritionist or a doctor. But I've noticed there seem to be quite a few that are common with AS, which I guess I've always assumed were due to absorption issues. So if that were the case, it seemed logical to me that you'd have to consume way more than the average person in order to get your levels up? So provided a supplement isn't toxic in larger doses (some are!), I've just been game to buy them, try them, and see if they help either pain level or energy level. Sometimes it's just easier than going to sit in another waiting room, since we already do that a lot more than either of us would like to. Sounds stupid when I put it that way, but it's an hour drive to get to the doctor's office, even when the roads are good!

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#499316 - 01/12/14 05:04 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
Dutchie Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/13
Posts: 42
@karenthebaron If you think absorption is the problem,then I think working on healing the gutflora will be more beneficial than supplements. I know,from my Lyme-days I used to take all kinds of expensive supplements and in the end they didn't do much for me bc they weren't absorbed. Personally, I now believe the body handles nutreints from food the best bc it actually knows what to do with it versus generic manmade stuff.:)

A food that helps heal the gutlining and so prevents food leaking out into the body,is gelatin (Bonus...gelatin even has some calcium;))
You could make gummies,jello,marshmellows with it,if your daugther doesn't like eating soup/broth.:)

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#499323 - 01/12/14 07:22 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: jroc]
Didier Offline
Second_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: jroc
Weight can stabilise on restrictive diets that are low in calories due to a decline in metabolic rate as the body slows everything down to conserve energy. Some signs of this include low body temperature, low resting pulse rate, reduced thyroid hormone levels, poor exercise tolerance, loss of libido, general lethargy, anxiety and irritability. For some people being this type of state can improve AS symptoms, possibly because it has an immune suppressive and anti-inflammatory effect. In the initial stages of restrictive dieting where weight loss occurs, the body enters a catabolic state with increased levels of stress hormones like cortisol which can have quite a dramatic immune suppressive and anti-inflammatory effect in the short term.


Btw jroc have I misunderstood or are you proposing this as an alternate explanation for why the NSD works for some? (ie. it gets you into a low metabolic state which has an immune suppressive effect, as opposed to the explanation involving klebsiella and leaky gut)

Didier

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#499329 - 01/12/14 09:05 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
jroc Offline
Magical_AS_Kicker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 757
Loc: New Zealand
I personally think it is likely to be one of the factors involved (just my speculation though). I don't think klebsiella in particular has anything to do with it but I do think the health of the gut plays a key role along with other diet and lifestyle factors that can tip the balance towards a pro or anti-inflammatory state.

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#499357 - 01/13/14 12:44 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: jroc]
Didier Offline
Second_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 208
I could see that. Especially from a personal perspective, I've had a rough time with NSD, it feels like I've taken on as many issues (fatigue, cognitive impairments, weight loss and body composition stuff, etc.) as I've resolved.

But I still couldn't explain via that theory why the tiniest little bit of starch - a few brussels sprouts, for example - repeatedly induce a flare for me. Certainly 3 brussels sprouts aren't enough calories, carbs, or whatever to get you our of that catabolic state? I don't want to debate but I'm very curious by nature!

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#499363 - 01/13/14 05:25 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
jroc Offline
Magical_AS_Kicker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 757
Loc: New Zealand
Quote:
I don't want to debate but I'm very curious by nature!

That's all good. Curiosity is a good thing and I enjoy these types of open discussions smile

Quote:
But I still couldn't explain via that theory why the tiniest little bit of starch - a few brussels sprouts, for example - repeatedly induce a flare for me. Certainly 3 brussels sprouts aren't enough calories, carbs, or whatever to get you our of that catabolic state?

That's a good point. I think people can sometimes develop such a starch-centric focus that they often overlook the many other compounds in food that can have an impact on gut health and/or inflammation as well as the overall context of diet/exercise/sleep/stress/lifestyle/metabolic health. For example brussel sprouts could be an issue due to the sulphur content. Brussel sprouts are full of sulphur-containing defensive chemicals and "it’s these sulphur-containing chemicals that the bacteria turn into hydrogen sulphide" - http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1905/

Elevated levels of hydrogen sulfide have been detected in UC patients and could play a role in UC:
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002927097000282
- http://www.springerlink.com/content/q212420164588062/.
Sulphate reducing bacteria are also present in higher numbers in AS patients compared to controls:
- http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/41/12/1395.short.

The only way to tell if it is starch content that is causing the issue and not another factor would be to eat an equivalent amount of 'benign' starch (something like rice or maltodextrin). Then there is also the issue that being in a hypometabolic state can have a negative impact on digestion (increased transit time, weaker stomach acid and enzyme activity) that can cause food sensitivities that didn't exist before the onset of dieting. There was an example of this recently in the forum:

"... if anything, being on the no/low starch diet has made things worse for me! Before, I could eat bread regularly and feel moderate pain. Now, when I eat bread, I have severe pain." - http://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=497750#Post497750

There are also a number of other changes that could potentially occur during starch/carb restricted dieting like impaired glucose tolerance that could lead to worsening syptoms upon reintroduction of starch/carbs. Some of those were discussed here - http://www.kickas.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=478453#Post478453

Some people are able to succeed and see good results on starch restrictive diets and some are even able to return to eating starch again without issues. I just think it's important to be aware of some of the issues that can arise due to restrictive dieting, especially as sometimes the proposed solution to problems caused by restrictive dieting is to apply even stricter dietary restrictions.

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#499364 - 01/13/14 05:56 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
Violeta Offline
Fourth_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 345
Loc: Pennsylvania
Excellent explanations, jroc.

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#499374 - 01/13/14 11:11 PM Re: common nutrient deficiencies in NSD? [Re: Didier]
zark Offline
Colonel_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 2483
Loc: NSW, Oz
+1 jroc.

That was awesome. Thankyou for your honesty too, it is true that there are downsides to the NSD. I had started to notice that I had to get my metabolism revving again, as I have been in a hypometabolic state for ages.. one obvious symptom was being excessively sensitive to the cold. And the food sensitivities is something I had just started to notice, and you mentioning it brings all the pieces together for me. I had experienced increasing sensitivity to preservatives, nitrites, and starch also. When I added amylopectin back to my diet these sensitivities seemed to reduce significantly (or even completely, except for with starch).

However... I have been able to remain pain free and still normalise my metabolism by eating amylopectin containing foods instead of the usual amylose rich foods. So from my experience it is specifically amylose starch that causes 95%+ of my grief.
_________________________
what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)

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