banners
Kickas Main Page | Rights and Responsibilities | Donate to Kickas
Kickas Links
·HOME
·Forums Main Index
·Register!
MEDICAL CENTRE
·Medicine Contract
·AS Patient Guidebook
·Pain Map
·Disease Modification
·Ask your doctor
·AS and RA Papers
·AS Acronyms
DIET CENTRE
·London AS Diet
·Molecular Mimicry
·AS Dietary Primer
·AS Food Guide
SUPPORT CENTRE
·In Memorium
·KickAS Stories
·KickAS Banners
·Donations
Forum Stats
10863 Members
28 Forums
41891 Topics
503891 Posts

Max Online: 312 @ 11/11/12 01:26 PM
Newest Members
ShootStr8, PSU4Life, Nancyhou, DaveL, Songstress06
10863 Registered Users
KickAs Team
Chief Administrator:
Melinda (mig)
Administrator/owner:
John (Dragonslayer)
WebAdmin:
Timo (Timo)
Administrator:
Brad (wolverinefan)

Moderators:
- Tim (Dotyisle)
- Chelsea (Kiwi)
- Megan (Megan)
- Wendy (WendyR)
- John (Cheerful)
- Chris (fyrfytr187)

QR Code
If you want to use this QR code (Quick Response code) just save the image and paste it where you want. You can even print it and use it that way. Coffee cups, T-Shirts etc would all be good for the QR code.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#465209 - 03/19/12 06:57 PM Can dialysis help in any way?
Alisvan Offline
New_Member

Registered: 03/14/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Mass, USA
I'm new to the forum, but was curious whether there has been any research done on dialysis treating AS? Given that it is our blood, could we wash it through or treat it through a process like that?

Gerry

Top
#465211 - 03/19/12 07:13 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
SJLC Offline
Iron_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1046
Loc: CA, USA
The main candidate for initial inflammation trigger in AS seems to be the gut. See research by Ebringer posted on this site. Some doctors are skeptical, but the skeptics have never discovered a more likely alternative, and other research has demonstrated the gut is able to trigger autoimmune arthritis:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100617120716.htm

"One surprising finding was that bacteria in the gut could influence the development of an autoimmune disease affecting tissues distant from the gut. Diseases such as irritable bowel syndrome have been linked to gut-residing bacteria, but this study is unique in showing the mechanism by which a bacterium in the gut can influence the development of an autoimmune response that ends in inflammation and pain in the joints."

Since it is not our blood that generates AS inflammation, even supposing you managed to temporarily wash it clean... new antibodies and inflammation markers would be produced and start circulating again.

Top
#465565 - 03/24/12 10:34 AM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
finnari Offline
Veteran_AS_Kicker

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 501
Loc: phoenix
No. Dialysis cleans blood of kidney toxins and has nothing to do with AS or immunity for that matter.
Besides dialysis by itself will slowly kill you.

Top
#465575 - 03/24/12 01:46 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
mig Offline


Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 12307
Loc: ON, Canada
Hi Finnari,.. I am curious why you said, "dialysis by itself will slowly kill you."?

My Mom has been on dialysis for approx. 10 yrs, due to failing kidney function, which is why I am interested. I'm aware of the many associated dangers... but why 'slowly'?

Thanks!
mig

Top
#465577 - 03/24/12 02:54 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
Skywalker Offline
Journeyman_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 105
Loc: Cambridge ,Ontario, Canada
Ok misinformation just abounding here.

1) The reason dialysis is hard on you is the crap floating around in you till the next dialysis, not the dialysis itself. And if you were HLA b27+ you'd still be having that blood dialisis just filters waste from it, on top of that your bones would still make your blood with the surface antigen.

2) I have eaten no starch since December and for the last month have literally only ate spinach, apples and tuna all raw and alone. My MRI last week still showed a ton of Bone marrow edema so for me at least even with diet and TNF blockers something is a rye.



One question I have = has Ebringer ever had debates with other professionals in the field, if so I would love to see the back and forth on the subject. If it exist i cant find it.

Top
#465579 - 03/24/12 03:51 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
mig Offline


Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 12307
Loc: ON, Canada
I understand dialysis helps eliminate toxins from the blood and that's why it's a beneficial treatment for failing kidneys. By associated dangers, I was referring to the increased potential for blood clots and (port) infections. I wasn't asking re: AS.

Re: Ebringer's research - there have been research studies done by other professionals in the field, (one group in TO) that could not replicate the same results and came to an opposite conclusion regarding klebsiella. To my knowledge, there have not been medical trials to investigate the effectiveness of diet, other than Professor Ebringer's. Whether or not there has been an in-person debate I don't know (John might know)... but they are certainly all aware of each others research. smile

Top
#465580 - 03/24/12 04:13 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
Skywalker Offline
Journeyman_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 105
Loc: Cambridge ,Ontario, Canada
It is bad; my good friend has 3 kidneys in him that don't work and a garden hose like thing into his arm for dialysis. He just survived c-deficial that he probably got at the treatment center.

I know they were aware of each others work and studies. I was just curious as to a head to head type 3 hour debate with stats and studies. If not why has this not taking place? I just get so confused. Everyone can have their own opinions but there is only one set of facts. However with AS there seems to be 2 sets of facts when I look for them.

Subjectively - I am partially saying this cause Im in pain still and am really missing frenchfries!

Top
#465581 - 03/24/12 04:37 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
mig Offline


Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 12307
Loc: ON, Canada
Oh a c-diff infection, how horrible for him, it seems to be everywhere now. My Mom caught c-diff too, but during a hospital stay following an operation a few years ago (not on the dialysis ward).

I doubt that a 3 hr head to head would make any difference. They don't agree on each others research methods/protocols, plus it's difficult to prove a negative. In other words, those who didn't find that Kleb was the culprit, can't say with 100% confidence that it cannot be either the culprit or one of the culprits. As you can no doubt tell, my understanding is quite limited, but if you are coming out to the Spondy Symposium, they usually have a Q&A period - so maybe you should prepare a question. I can tell ya who to ask! Maybe ask if they'd consider doing a diet study. smile

Your AS really does sound stubborn if none of the treatments are having any positive effect. It is such a rotten disease, eh.

Top
#465583 - 03/24/12 06:40 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Skywalker]
SJLC Offline
Iron_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1046
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Skywalker

I have eaten no starch since December and for the last month have literally only ate spinach, apples and tuna all raw and alone. My MRI last week still showed a ton of Bone marrow edema so for me at least even with diet and TNF blockers something is a rye.


I have no experience with TNF blockers, but here are a couple ideas regarding why diet may not be working for you

1. most apples sold in grocery stores are starchy because they are not allowed to ripen long enough on the tree -- read about it many times, confirmed it myself with iodine and samples from different varieties and batches of apples, including some grown within this county. I had to give up on eating apples, now eat thompson raisins and walnuts instead.

Now of course I don't know your situation; maybe you're eating apples in perfect condition from a tree in your own backyard. Just something to consider.

2. the diet-success thread has cases where diet only worked after someone took antibiotics. This implies problems with germs colonizing outside their gut, which trigger the unhealthy AS immune response just as much as the wrong type of germs inside the gut. For instance, it is known that bladder infections can cause reactive arthritis, and klebsiella can cause such infections, sometimes "asymptomatic" meaning no noticeable bladder infection symptoms... and it can live in other parts of the body as well. Who knows, other germs that cause "cryptic infections" might also contribute to some cases of AS. Even if gut klebsiella is a very common trigger, doesn't mean there aren't others.

If all other harmful germ colonies can be eliminated, then reductions in gut colonies should lead to AS improvement. Of course not every type of antibiotics works for every germ, and common bacteria are picking up more resistances all the time. Dragonslayer is an example of someone who experimented with multiple antibiotics until finding ones that worked, and only afterwards was able to notice improvement from strict diet.

Top
#465584 - 03/24/12 06:42 PM Re: Can dialysis help in any way? [Re: Alisvan]
Skywalker Offline
Journeyman_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 105
Loc: Cambridge ,Ontario, Canada
Well they have a small effect I feel like 30% better, but really far removed from yester year.

As far as the debate , I would just like to see if there is duckin and weaving or some sound answers from either side. I like to see people debate, I find I learn as much from watching their interaction at times, as the content itself. How can 2 sides have 2 different sides of facts?


I did plan on putting the starch question and/or about a study on my paper as to be my question at SPARCC.

Didnt mean to hijack the thread.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Who's Online
1 registered (Lon), 37 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Recent Posts
NDS LDN fillers
by light
Today at 12:27 PM
Low level laser theraphy
by jay_bharat
Today at 11:02 AM
Ultrasound - pain management
by jay_bharat
Today at 11:00 AM
TENS
by jay_bharat
Today at 10:58 AM
Question about narcotic efficacy in AS
by Megan
Today at 02:58 AM
Anyone else get twitching?
by Songstress06
Yesterday at 11:16 AM
former employers
by elmerfudd
07/22/14 07:37 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
"FITNESS" TEAM! - All Physical Activity & Sports 15041954
Has anyone had Pedicle subtraction Osteotomy ? 666871
hmmm 575419
What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? 396087
User names revisited 299544
A.S and beds, What do you find best? 268004
Medicinal Marijuana 266707
OMG!!!! 265388
THE STARCH CONTENT OF FOODS - THE LIST 214839
No/Low Starch Diet Success Stories 212688