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#464748 - 03/12/12 08:10 PM Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch?
kawasakiguy37 Offline
New_Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 10
Although I do not own Carol Sinclair's book I have gone through Erginger's papers and dont see any info looking specifically at resistant starch versus simple starches - which would be highly valuable information.

Simple starches are essentially just medium glycemic index sugars and could easily be feeding something like klebsiella (or other gut pathogen). Any undigested sugars such as glucose, fructose, etc, would of course provide the ideal fermentable material for klebsiella, and I know that many avoid lactose for this reason.

However both RS1 and RS2 (found in beans, etc) provide an excellent fermentable substrate for the production of butyrate and other beneficial SCFAs - acids that would in theory INHIBIT klebsiella growth.

Now in normally healthy individuals it has been proven that both RS1 and RS2 provide a fiber like component to the diet and can make a huge improvement in "gut permeability." Klebsiella in the gut alone should not produce an immune response as it would never enter the bloodstream - and in addition RS provides an almost ideal slowly digesting way to increase liver and muscle glycogen levels as well as supporting NADPH recycling of glutathione (our primary antioxidant).

Does anyone know if resistant starch is specifically been studied in its contribution to AS? I have no problem giving up simple starches and sugars, but resistant starch along with foods high in vitamin K has totally cleared up my intestinal issues and I would rather keep them in my diet if possible.

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#464750 - 03/12/12 08:46 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
jroc Offline
Decorated_AS_Kicker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 724
Loc: New Zealand
excellent points and one of the main reasons why I don't personally employ starch restriction to treat AS. i did far better AS wise on a vegetarian diet high in resistant starch and soluble fibre than I did when experimenting with a low starch, higher fat diet. everyone responds differently to different diets so find out what works for you.

the only thing that has been studied involving starch and AS was a 9month dietary trial on 36 AS patients that were instructed to increase their intake of Red Meat, White Meat, Fish, Beans & Peas, Nuts, Vegetables & Salads, Milk, Fruit and reduce their intake of Bread, Potatoes, Chips, Rice, Spaghetti, Cereals, Cakes, Biscuits. the ESR of patients decreased by an average of 14mm/hr and there was a significant decrease in serum IgA. starch restriction may have been responsible for the improvement but there are also many other variables that are changed by following those guidelines which makes it impossible based on this study alone to conclude that specifically reducing starch intake improves AS symptoms. it can however be concluded that following those specific dietary guidelines has been shown to lead to an improvement of inflammatory markers and symptoms in AS patients and that changing diet can have a significant impact AS symptoms. since the patients were instructed to increase consumption of beans and peas then it could even be argued that an increased intake of resistant starch and soluble fibre were responsible for some of the improvements seen.



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#464796 - 03/13/12 05:34 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
lar84 Offline
Third_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 265
Loc: Virginia
I would like to test this theory out. Can you give examples or simple vs resistant?

Thanks!
_________________________
Lauren S.

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#464804 - 03/13/12 08:48 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: lar84]
kawasakiguy37 Offline
New_Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 10
Sure Lauren. Something like black beans would be higher in resistant starch - mainly RS2 I believe (there are RS1, RS2, and RS3)

Something like a sweet potatoe or russet potatoe has a mix of both - it really depends on the variety

Been eating a lot of sprouted beans lately and Ive been feeling great - Ive eliminated most other starchy sources though from my diet (with the exception of some types of squash/yam)


Im thinking the real key here is any sugar that gets to the end of the small intestine undigested - which would be highly dependent on the person and their gut flora

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#464826 - 03/14/12 04:34 AM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
Philsta Offline
Journeyman_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 128
Loc: Perth, Australia - Frankfurt, ...
Interesting.

I would love to be able to eat more beans.. I have thus far avoided them becausde I thought they were starchy.

Actually now that I looked at Edbringer's study ( here ) again, beans and peas are listed on the 'Increase' side of his table.

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#464827 - 03/14/12 06:52 AM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
Alinus Offline
Ninja_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 839
Loc: Romania, Suceava
Ebringer recomended LSD - low starch diet. beans are allowed on LSD.


Edited by Alinus (03/14/12 06:53 AM)
_________________________
34. Some rheumys say AS stage 1-2 some others say USpA
Also UC - rectocolitis.

UC curently in remission since feb 2011.
AS/USpA remission march-aug 2011. Flare - sept-nov 2011 (antibiotics). Remission now...

Modified NSD/SCD. Cook your own !
____________________________________________________________
Mesalazine-Salofalk 500 mg/day

And the list of my medication has become verry short after some years on this diet smile

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#464863 - 03/14/12 03:51 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
kawasakiguy37 Offline
New_Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 10
I am now thinking that people with HLAB27 may have a deficiency at digesting certain starches, leading to an ideal substrate for klebsiella (or similar) to thrive on. This combined with gut permeability could explain why we are seeing so many antibodies in the blood in AS patients.

Hopefully RS would avoid this - I would theorize that SDS (slowly digesting starch) is the culprit, as RDS (rapidly digestested starch) seems to be fairly easily broken down by most.

While reducing total starch would of course temporarily help these symptoms (by not giving klebsiella something to feed on), in the long run it would not solve the inherent problem of intestinal wall permeability as it seems RS is a key component in production of butyrate and other essential SCFA's that protect the lining of the colon and allow it to heal.

For those interested in learning more about Resistant Starch (the third form, digests much slower than SDS):

http://www.aseanfood.info/Articles/11020059.pdf

*Also I'd like to point out that I am NOT a doctor and this is all just part of my personal efforts in improving quality of life*


Edited by kawasakiguy37 (03/14/12 03:55 PM)

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#464876 - 03/14/12 05:37 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
Alinus Offline
Ninja_AS_Kicker

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 839
Loc: Romania, Suceava
there are other sources for butyrate production and NSD is ok with providing them. unfortunately i'm not at the PC where i've saved the data, if i did save it at all. but i've spent some time over this, since i have UC, and gut healing is a major and constant concern with me.

back with this link - just a fast search on google:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html

so you have to increase your fiber...

nuts, fruits, veggies, butter ... all can comply with NSD. No need for starch intake if you wanna increase your fiber...


Edited by Alinus (03/14/12 05:43 PM)
_________________________
34. Some rheumys say AS stage 1-2 some others say USpA
Also UC - rectocolitis.

UC curently in remission since feb 2011.
AS/USpA remission march-aug 2011. Flare - sept-nov 2011 (antibiotics). Remission now...

Modified NSD/SCD. Cook your own !
____________________________________________________________
Mesalazine-Salofalk 500 mg/day

And the list of my medication has become verry short after some years on this diet smile

Top
#464878 - 03/14/12 05:55 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
Pea Offline
Lieutenant_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 1891
Loc: Pacific Northwest
You guy's this is a great post! Thank you!
_________________________
Pea
Diagnosed with A.S. 28 year's ago.
Diagnosed with Fibro 9 year's ago.
Remicade, Intrathecal Pain Pump 2013

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#464937 - 03/15/12 02:37 PM Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? [Re: kawasakiguy37]
kawasakiguy37 Offline
New_Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 10
Many of the substances they list for having dietary fiber that increases butyrate production also has RS - While things like Oat Bran have lots of fiber, they have been shown to not produce large amounts of butyrate:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1374147/

So I think RS (or some other high butyrate producing fiber) could really benefit the sufferers of AS and inflammatory bowel related disorders.

This article is a goldmine:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6968.2002.tb11467.x/full

They list two possible high butyrate produers:

Roseburia intestinalis
and
Faecalibacterium prausnitzii

Interestingly enough low levels of F. Prausnitzii are associated with Crohns

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/43/16731.short

R. Intestinalis can ferment glucose, arabinose, cellobiose,
maltose, fructose, raffinose, sucrose, xylose,
xylan and starch:

http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/52/5/1615.full.pdf+html

Looks like long-chain inulin is also butyrogenic:

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/suppl.1/4672.full


Edited by kawasakiguy37 (03/15/12 06:07 PM)

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