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#460689 - 01/18/12 09:36 PM vitamins and minerals
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
not conclusive, but a start:

http://www.doctoryourself.com/arthritis_II.html

though dairy is a common trigger for arthritis, so i'd say be cautious of that; it is for me.

thanks donette for mentioning the "doctor yourself" website today. that's what got me reading that site.

i want to start vitamin E, but not without my rheumy's supervision. being fat soluble, i could cause my liver more damage rather than heal it if not careful.

and my B12 is already above normal, probably due to my liver, so won't be taking that.

also, not sure about the other B vitamins. more reading........
i've been reading a variety of sites and getting lots of difference of opinion. sorting opinion from fact.

but vitamin C, being water soluble, and from all i've read, i can't find any controversy or words of caution, so will increase that from 1000 mg a day to something higher. still trying to decide how much higher.

already taking a good amount of vitamin D, calcium, and magnesium. i think i'm good with those. and probiotics and fish oil too; happy with those amounts.

just wishing the vitamins and minerals weren't all horse pills......
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#460692 - 01/18/12 10:06 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
can anyone suggest a brand, type of vit E to buy?

i like buying through the vitamin shoppe if i can. that's where i get my Ca, Mg, vit C, fish oil, CoQ.
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#460783 - 01/19/12 10:35 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
sunnypower Offline
Copper_AS_Kicker

Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: usa
I know nothing lol but what I've read is that there are alpha and gamma and you may need both? There was an article, online I think, where they were sayin that gamma may be just as, if not MORE important than alpha but most suppliments only have alpha.

As for what brand...
I usually buy online. For me it's waaaaay easier to research a product/ingredients AND I can find exactly what I'm after most of the time. Swanson is online and seem to have their own line that is fairly simple as far as ingredients.
_________________________
AS & Fibro. NSD + no sugar

Top
#460803 - 01/20/12 05:58 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: sunnypower]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
thanks for the input.

yeh, been reading about the different kinds of E too........more reading.......

will look at that brand, thanks smile
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#460850 - 01/20/12 09:32 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
A couple of things.

Vitamin D is fat soluble. Vitamin E is fat soluble. Why is it OK to take one and not the other? My pop has liver disease and takes vitamin E, ALA, and selenium. He seems to do fine with it. Food for thought on that one.

Vitamin C is about as toxic as water (which can be toxic if consumed carelessly); take as much as you can bear. If B12 is above normal, are you confident in the test? Nothing to worry about regarding taking more B12 since it is water soluble and needs to be replenished daily. However, if you feel it is likely to pass through you, well, abstain from it I guess. I would rather, however, take too much and make sure my bases are covered. Last time I had mine checked I was out of range (above range). I cover my bases.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#460851 - 01/20/12 09:38 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Originally Posted By: Sue22
can anyone suggest a brand, type of vit E to buy?


I can't suggest a brand but you may want to look for something with mixed tocopherols and multiple tocotrienols for broadest nutrition.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#460952 - 01/22/12 10:11 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
funny you should mention vitamin D. most of my doctors were big fans of it. my old endocrinologist gave me antidotal stories to show how it was very hard to take to much / get too much. but then he retired and his replacement freaked out over how much i was taking, but she freaked out about a bunch of other things as well, so i took it all with a grain of salt (like she looked at my list of drugs and supplements that my other doctors had me on, that have helped me feel ALOT better and said she only saw 2 or 3 things on that list that i needed).

still. her "concerns" got me to find the report that i believe she was referring to. while she was WAY off in her information (like saying our vitamin D blood levels should be 20-30 (units?)), i did read the parts of this report that pertained to what i needed to know.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13050&page=R1

i will now aim for ~60 (units) D showing up in my blood. and will try to do it with ~4000-5000 IU daily. i was shooting before for ~80.

from what i read in that report, vit D and calcium are pretty complex. more is known about calcium and if one takes too much, it does the exact opposite to the bones that we are shooting for. now they recommend more like 1000 mg Ca daily for post menopausal women like me. it had been higher in the past. my rheumy was the first to tell me this, last visit. but he won't give misinformation if he doesn't mention the details, just tell me what he remembers.

vit D is much more up in the air, but all the various data, various studies, etc, its all in that report if you are curious enough to read the pertinent sections. i focussed on the sections regarding how much is too much.

that got me interested in all the fat soluble vitamins. so, like E, i'm now more cautious about D as well.

reading never hurts. i think its up to us to sift through all the data and make informed decisions.

what i hate is when my doctors are at odds with one another. then i have to decide which advice to take, which is fine with me. just hate it when they then give me a hard time because i'm not following their directions. but one can't do two contradictory things at the same time.

so, we read and decide and proceed.


as for C. yes, i agree with that. seems incredibly safe from everything i've read. some people may not think it as useful as others think it is, but, no one seems to think it dangerous in any way that i can see. when i was a senior in college, i read linus paulings book on vitamin C. that book made quite an impact on me.

as for the B12. been trying to contact my GI doc that ordered most of my blood work to check out my liver, to inform him. see if he'd order another B12 test. the only reason i'm concerned about the elevated levels is that i just want to make sure its due to bigger liver problems than any of us realized or leukemia, though i doubt the leukemia angle. still i'm of the same mindset of my GI doc; why assume that which can be tested. have an appointment with the endocrine PA that ordered the B12 blood work. will ask her to reorder the test. that's a first step. when i tried to discuss it with the endocrinologist, she said it wasn't an endocrine issue so she wouldn't discuss it. i need to find another endocrinologist......someone like dr C, who took a much more holistic approach to things, and was much more open minded.

i guess what bugs me is when tests show signs of a problem and doctors note it but do nothing about it. my old GP was like that. this new endocrinologist is like that. but at least my rheumy and GI doc are on top of things.
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#460960 - 01/22/12 11:26 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
elmerfudd Offline
Fifth_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 394
Loc: north central indiana
I like the way you thinks...

Top
#460962 - 01/22/12 12:49 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Leukemia. That is quite a jump from above normal readings on B12 test results. Personally, I think your liver is overburdened due to some infectious organism, hence your elevated enzymes. One that few doctors are willing to discuss. Too political I guess. I suppose my opinion doesn't matter. Were it leukemia, would you not have other signs in your bloodwork? Additionally, you might present to them with other symptoms. Additionally, I think that there would be a lot more urgency on your doctor's part.

I wouldn't worry about medical doctors nutritional information contradicting each other. At least I've found out they usually have no clue about that, are dismissive of it, and only believe toxic drugs or surgery or a procedure or medical device will help. The only nutritional advice I take from any medical doctor is one specifically labeled as integrative. You need to make up your own mind however.

Quote:
...now they recommend more like 1000 mg Ca daily...


Who are "they"?

Quote:
i think its up to us to sift through all the data and make informed decisions.


Exactly. This is why I largely ignore anything any quack has to say about nutrition.

Quote:

i guess what bugs me is when tests show signs of a problem and doctors note it but do nothing about it.


This is why I ignore them. There are plenty of other healthcare providers out there. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#461347 - 01/27/12 11:04 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
hello again jay,

to address some of your points:

1. one of the best sites i found to discuss what high levels of B12 could mean:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/300753-what-are-the-causes-of-high-blood-levels-of-vitamin-b12/

2. leukemia? not that exactly, i was just being lazy with my words. here's what i'm talking about more specifically. but you are correct, when thinking horses, not zebras, unhappy liver far more likely than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelodysplastic-myeloproliferative
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chronic-myelogenous-leukemia/DS00564

i really think its the liver but again, "why assume that which we can measure / test" thus have a doctor doing a CBC with differential. its been awhile since i've had one done. other than my white blood cell count usually being just above normal, nothing suspicious; and that's probably just due to overactive immune system, hence the inflammatory arthritis, which i'm thinking is probably an allergic response to various things (casein, egg protein, silk protein?, mold?, pollen?).

3. liver. based on blood work (slightly high ALT, ~3x my normal at its highest, even less elevated AST, ~2x my normal at its highest, and slightly elevated B12 now, but when ALT less than double normal now, so who knows at its highest) and the fact that the numbers went up for about 6 months, then started coming back down,

the three things that make the most sense: fatty liver due to insulin resistance / metabolic syndrome (i gained 15 lbs in 6 months last year (i blame the nsaids as i never gain like that!), the 4 nsaids i trialed from sept through april, or as you said, a virus of some kind. my doctors think all of those things make sense. and no one is really panicking since the numbers didn't get too high and they are continually receding. i must admit, i did panic at first; mostly because i was afraid i'd have to discontinue my flector patches and/or zanaflex.

4. as for the "urgency" issue. i think the doctors i mesh well with are like me. don't panic, but don't assume either. watch, monitor, test where we can. be cautious, but not overly concerned.

5. the reason i'm as vigilant as i am regarding the liver, cirrhosis of the liver (due to diabetes) runs in my family. that's what my grandmother died from. aunt had it unbeknownst to her at the age of 50 til of course it was discovered. the good thing about me being (probably over) tested so much, is that we can catch things early and intervene.

6. doctors contradicting one another. its not the nutritional / supplement stuff i care about. i can listen to everyone, read, then make a decision based on all the information. what concerned me is that the endocrine PA out of the GYN office and the naturpath wanted to put me on hydrocortisone for adrenal fatigue or give me supplements that i've read don't even get through the digestive system on the one hand. and the endocrine, not only going ballistic over the thought of putting me on the hydrocortisone, but telling me "adrenal fatigue is hogwash". who do i believe. she also told me saliva testing for cortisone is bogus while the other doctors believe in it. and that reverse T3 testing is bogus and another doctor gave me book titles so i could go buy books (that i've bought and read) about how all the traditional endocrinologists are wrong in how they treat thyroid, basically the way i've been treated. so, which side do i believe? i'm reading and trying to decide for myself.

7. They? concerning Ca and D?

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13050&page=R1

i didn't read all ~1100 pages, but did skim the important parts pertaining to how much Ca and D i should be taking. happy with my decisions for now.

ok, i think that's all. been coming back to this for the last few hours, been busy in the lab, but i think that's it for now
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#461828 - 02/03/12 03:22 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
As long as you are comfortable with your doctor and are comfortable regarding the tests that you are using for evaluation, then perhaps you are fretting over nothing. There is nothing you need to justify to me, but I'd be awfully suspicious of extreme diagnoses. While they certainly aren't out of the question, one must ask how probable they are.

1100 pages on vitamin D and calcium? Really?
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#461904 - 02/04/12 09:48 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
hi jay,

thanks for the replies. not so much justifying to anyone as much as thinking out loud (so thanks for letting me use you as a sounding board (my husband gets bored with being the only one!) and allowing me to verbalize my logic.

been doing a bunch more reading, and now i'm 99.99% sure that the elevated ALT, elevated B12 is all due to fatty liver due to insulin resistance.

diet, exercise is the first line of defense and been working very hard at that; its not enough. i know i have to lose weight and i do very slowly in the summer, and at least this winter haven't gained. i know insulin resistance makes weight loss hard, and now just read that fatty liver makes weight loss even harder (the explanation made sense to me).

so looking to see all i can do (besides just diet and exercise, can't get much better there) to treat both insulin resistance and fatty liver.

started the vit E (400 IU - for now just the d-alpha; after reading and that's all the pharmacy had, decided to just start there for now). but am aware of the studies showing those on vit E vs placebo had higher mortality rates. so still reading.

and started a vit B 100 complex. the B's caused very bad gastritis (one pill) and bright neon yellow pee (probably not an issue?) so stopped the B after that first pill. not sure i'll be doing B, unless the doctors can recommend a form that doesn't mess with my stomach so severely. my stomach is my achilles heel; if something can affect the stomach, it will affect mine, and my stomach will never adjust (been there, done that, many times over).

E and Bs supposed to be good for adrenal, liver, diabetes. but as i read, back to a lot of stuff continually going back to C. may be upping that.

anyway, lots to read, lots to take in. too much contradictory info out there; gotta decide which seems most logical, which is based on fact vs speculation.

and yes, that report that i linked is that long. obviously i only read the pertinent chapters. those reports are often crazy long!
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462077 - 02/06/12 09:40 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Glad to learn that you might have clarification regarding you liver issues.

I don't have any citations for you, but I think that vitamin E study that poo-pooed Vitamin E was flawed. You may want to investigate that too.

Regarding the neon yellow urine, I get that occasionally. I take that as my body telling me that I have enough B vitamins and it is voiding the excess. Expensive waste though. I take 50mg twice a day to avoid that problem. However, I'd rather have too much than too little. Should that B formula bother you, you may want to look into Brewer's Yeast (provided that isn't a problem) or a sublingual B-Complex. I'm pretty sure the latter exist, but don't have a name off hand. I supplement with a B6-B12-Folic Acid sublingual daily.

It would be hard to get too much Vit C. Vit C is about as toxic as water. You may also want to look into liposomal Vitamin C (although expensive).
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#462219 - 02/07/12 08:35 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
sunnypower Offline
Copper_AS_Kicker

Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: usa
funny enough I have the sublingual B complex.
http://www.vitacost.com/Vitacost-B-Complex-Liquid
_________________________
AS & Fibro. NSD + no sugar

Top
#462267 - 02/08/12 11:01 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
i've been reading and will continue to read what i can regarding vitamin E. while things are still controversial, i want to know what the "truth" is. but for now, am satisfied that 400 IU of E a day will be safe. and have decided that the generic form is ok too. will switch perhaps after getting recommendations from my doctors. and my body is tolerating the E well. been about a week on it and all is well.

since the B100 complex bothered my stomach so severely with one pill, will wait to get a recommendation from my docotor(s). they've been quite excellent at pointing me toward calcium citrate and ester C. prior to that i didn't think i could "stomach" calcium or C, but in these forms, they are absolutely fine. i'm sure there has to be a B complex that won't bother me. or maybe i just need less than 100 mg of some of these vitamins. getting the impression of the "highlighter yellow" urine is kind of a normal thing.
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462305 - 02/08/12 03:56 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 3231
Loc: Valley Cottage, NY
Sue, regarding Vit D, Looks like you may need to add this book to your reading list too:

"End Of All Illness"

(but that's only after you've finished reading the Isaacson Steve Jobs biography, of course tongue2 )
_________________________
Dow

Top
#462310 - 02/08/12 04:30 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Dow]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
thanks for the heads up smile

actually i just bought this book, though not sure when i'll be reading it. probably this summer (or maybe a good project for spring break). rainbow

we must have both seen the doctor / author with jon stewart. well, that's how i found out about the book.

and what he mentioned about vitamin E in the interview, that's the study jay was referring to. i had read about it before i heard the doctor/author bring it up.

i do agree with what he said regarding vitamins / supplements. i think for most people, they should be / can be getting what they need from their diet if they eat a good plant based diet full of lots of variety of vegetables (and fruit). will be interesting to read the details regarding vitamins in his book.

i used to think that was enough for me as well. but do feel better between my flares these days. think the supplements my rheumy and other doctors have me on may be to blame. think supplementation becomes important if we do have chronic illness. at least that's what i'm finding to be true for myself. diet is important too of course, but doesn't seem to be enough alone for me.

and maybe the drugs i am on are also contributing. just read or heard how prilosec can lead to low magnesium levels. could explain why my magnesium supplement has eliminated the calf and foot cramps i used to get.

as for the Steve Jobs biography, i'm not sure i'll ever finish that book! not sure what i was thinking when i bought that and the new van gogh biography at the same time. both are giant tomes. well, at least i plenty to keep me busy when i retire some day! tongue2
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462325 - 02/08/12 06:25 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 3231
Loc: Valley Cottage, NY
Send me your iPod and I'll put the 8 hour audiobook version of the SJ biography on it!

____________
Dow
Winner of KA award for Most Off Topic Remarks Which Also Include Elements Of Questional Legality, lol

Top
#462341 - 02/08/12 11:26 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
elmerfudd Offline
Fifth_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 394
Loc: north central indiana
My brain gets fuzzy trying to keep up with the conversations sometimes.
I have been drinking " ensure " can purchase it at drugstores, its for sick people who may not be getting enough. #1 doctor recommended. Its chocolate and taste really good. A lot of meds will deplete vitamins, and the quality of vitamins vary. So its important to discuss this with the seller.
just my two cents....

Top
#462417 - 02/09/12 04:35 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: elmerfudd]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Elmer,

Here are some problems with a product like Ensure (this is Homemade Vanilla flavor):

Quote:
Ingredients []

WATER, SUGAR (SUCROSE), CORN MALTODEXTRIN, MILK PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, SOY OIL, CANOLA OIL; LESS THAN 0.5% OF: SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, CORN OIL, POTASSIUM CITRATE, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, MAGNESIUM PHOSPHATE, SODIUM CITRATE, SOY LECITHIN, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE, SALT (SODIUM CHLORIDE), CHOLINE CHLORIDE, ASCORBIC ACID, CARRAGEENAN, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, FERROUS SULFATE, DL-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, ZINC SULFATE, NIACINAMIDE, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, CUPRIC SULFATE, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, THIAMINE CHLORIDE HYDROCHLORIDE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID, CHROMIUM CHLORIDE, BIOTIN, SODIUM MOLYBDATE, POTASSIUM IODIDE, SODIUM SELENATE, PHYLLOQUINONE, VITAMIN D3 AND CYANOCOBALAMIN. CONTAINS MILK AND SOY INGREDIENTS.
CONTAINS MILK AND SOY INGREDIENTS; GLUTEN-FREE; SUITABLE FOR LACTOSE INTOLERANCE.


I don't understand how table sugar, corn maltodextrin (GM corn? at that), soy oil (soy anything really...especially GM soy), and canola oil (probably refined, bleached, and deodorized - RBD) is good for anyone. I understand that it serves a purpose for a certain demographic, but that does not make it healthy. That is some pretty expensive water (first ingredient) too I imagine. You would be better off making a healthy, delicious shake at home with some high quality protein powder and good fat (like unrefined coconut oil) and taking a quality multivitamin instead of drinking this less than healthy (my opinion) concoction.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#462444 - 02/09/12 09:24 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
i tried ensure for a short time back in 1993 when my gastritis / IBS started. i hated the taste, still have an aversion to it. and i think jay is absolutely right about how unhealthy it really is.

something i used to make before i had to give up dairy:
plain stoneyfield yogurt
fresh fruit (berries usually)
nut powder (almond or hazelnut)
organic coconut (optional)
blended all together.

now i mix:
oatmeal
fruit
nut powder
coconut (sometimes)
cinnamon
occasionally melt in a small square of chocolate
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462447 - 02/09/12 10:42 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Jaybird]
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 3231
Loc: Valley Cottage, NY
My dad used to drink that when he couldn't tolerate regular food, and needed some way to keep from losing weight. He called it "Endure" tongue2
_________________________
Dow

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#462658 - 02/13/12 06:31 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
elmerfudd Offline
Fifth_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 394
Loc: north central indiana
I also have been battling Gastritis, stricture and hiatal hernia, so the endure, so far has been part of a anti Gastritis campaign. I did try some protein powder from GNC and I don't think I digested it right. So for now, kill me or cure me I am going to keep with the ensure. After six months of constant gastritis and weight loss. I have for the last week, been feeling better in the gut. This is a huge step, now I just have 20 more issues to overcome.

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#462670 - 02/13/12 11:48 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: elmerfudd]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
Gastritis:

developed IBS in 1991-1992. no pain. just not digesting my food properly. they couldn't figure it out.

a year later: oct 1993. developed really severe gastritis. took about 3 years to recover from. the first was so so painful and debilitating.

here are the things that helped my gastritis:

1. daily prilosec. every day since 1993. tried zantac, tagamet, pepsid (2 of the three first). they were like eating candy. but the prilosec really made a difference. can tell when i've gone too long without it. like when i fall asleep without my meds and take it the next morning.

2. keeping one's stomach full. small meals every few hours. never let yourself start to feel even a little hungry!

3. keep a food / symptom diary. from that i found i couldn't tolerate dairy, underripe fruit, or acidic foods (cranberries or their juice, tomato sauce, citrus juices, other acidic fruits). staying away from them made my stomach hurt a lot less. your list may be different, but i do think food / diet is an important part of the puzzle.

4. no caffeine!

5. ginger: ginger herbal tea. ginger in general. fresh grated ginger. even now, every morning, i have a nice big 2 cup mug of ginger herbal tea.

6. mint / peppermint: if and only if you do not have reflux. i don't have reflux. mint for me is even better than ginger. when my stomach is at its worst, candy canes, altoids, mint herbal tea.

7. no calcium carbonate (antacids). they make the gastritis worse. trust me.

8. at its worst, mylanta (double strength cherry cream with Al(OH)3, Mg(OH)2, simenthicone) as a quick emergency "bandaid". when my stomach was at its worst, i had to take mylanta at bedtime (so my stomach wouldn't eat itself as i tried to sleep) then i'd wake from the pain ~5 am and have to take it again. then i'd get up and eat and take it a third time before my drive in to work. during the day i could get by with food buffering my stomach. but at night i needed the mylanta.

i still have to take care of my stomach every day. but now its largely under control. but those first few years were awful!

maybe some of these tricks could help you as well?
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462678 - 02/13/12 12:52 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
elmerfudd Offline
Fifth_Degree_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 394
Loc: north central indiana
I think my Gastritis came about after prolonged stress. along with the meds I was taking. Thanks for the tips, they do make a difference. Thanks Sue, for posting that up. The gut thing is a miserable condition.

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#462685 - 02/13/12 02:25 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: elmerfudd]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
(work related) stress was certainly exacerbating mine, though not the cause. changing jobs helped, though it still took about 2 years to heal up enough to feel "normal" again.

meds: many nsaids will flare my gastritis quite quickly. of the ones i've tried, ibuprofen and ketoprofen are by far the worst. one pill does it. aleve does it pretty fast as well, after a few pills over a few days. and that's on a full stomach, plenty of water, on prilosec, etc. even the cox2 inhibitors eventually got to my stomach as well, just took longer (taking it 2-3 times a week over three years). so yes, be careful of those meds.

as for stress, as a doc understandingly said to me, "life is stressful." all we can do is steer clear of the truly stressful people and situations, and find ways to unwind and relax whenever we can. the first (staying away from stress is often easier said than done) but finding ways to unwind, that's something within my power: nature, music, funny tv and movies, being around god (funny) friends and colleagues, a bath or hot shower, a good cup of tea......
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462882 - 02/16/12 12:26 AM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
here's a new twist on things......reading the book, "the end of illness", skimming ahead, the chapter on vitamins and supplements.....and this coming from an oncologist..........antioxidants (vitamin E and vitamin C) may help cancer cells the same way they help normal cells.....thus helping cancer cells to thrive........

i'll know better once i get to those chapters

also, this doctors opinion was that unless one is trying to treat some disease state with supplements, they are probably not warranted for the general population of "healthy" individuals.

since i do have health issues the vitamins and supplements may be helping me.

i sure do feel better between flares than i used to.

so for now, will be taking vitamins and supplements.

but due to the controversy, maybe will be more cautious and err on the side of the lower level of what is proposed.
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
#462966 - 02/16/12 10:40 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: Sue22]
sunnypower Offline
Copper_AS_Kicker

Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: usa
Since the topic of vit C is up, I ran into this...
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=350
The section "It can't hurt, or can it?" is a bit shocking as it discusses exactly what you said and more sue. If I read right they say a whole c complex is best?

Also, since most corn and soy is GMO it makes you wonder about the suppliment even more.
_________________________
AS & Fibro. NSD + no sugar

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#462998 - 02/17/12 04:56 PM Re: vitamins and minerals [Re: sunnypower]
Sue22 Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 20515
Loc: Upstate NY
i did not read through the entire discussion in detail, but did see enough scientifically incorrect statements to think that one should take all that was said there with a grain of salt.

i take esterC, which is calcium ascorbate. since its not acidic, my stomach can tolerate it. it also comes with citrus bioflavinoids to help with absorption.

i'll have to think about the whole concept of ascorbate vs a complex, right now i can't really comment on that.

but an antioxidant doesn't remove oxygen, so that comment about cells being starved for oxygen and antioxidants affecting oxygen isn't true. antioxidants react with free radicals, cleaning up damaging free radicals. that's a good thing if we don't want our good DNA damaged. but apparently those free radicals also attack cancer cells, so that's where the antioxidants might cause a problem. maybe more of a problem for someone who actually has cancer.

there were other problems with their reasoning, that was just one simple example.

i'm not that concerned with GMO in general. sometimes we do have to be careful, like when we genetically engineer in a pesticide that also kills the beneficial insects. but other modifications are no different than what one would get through old fashioned breeding, other than we can now create exactly what we want without having to wait for that one rare mutation to take advantage of.
_________________________


sue

Spondyloarthropathy, HLAB27 negative
Humira (still methylprednisone for flares, just not as often. Aleve if needed, rarely.)
LDN/zanaflex/flector patches over SI/ice
vits C, D. probiotics. hyaluronic acid. CoQ, Mg, Ca, K.
chiro
walk, bike
no dairy (casein sensitivity), limited eggs, limited yeast (bread)

Top
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