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#360634 - 11/02/09 02:36 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Dow]
Angelmom Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 8190
Loc: Oklahoma..where the wind comes...
I know this post is 100% NOT funny but I went and saw the movie SAW and while I was watching it this post kept popping up.

I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone but it was about how OUR healthcare screws people everyday with making life and death choices of who will live and who will die by their insurance approvals and denials.

The sad thing is I was thinking yes sometimes I am sure that is what possibly what we would feel like doing to the insurance companies or the people that run them.

Insurance gets to approve or deny procedures every day that they deem experimental or too costly.

I do sooo agree with Kat, it doesn't matter if there is a drug addict trying to keep his family together or a member of congress EVERY PERSON deserves the right to insurance, coverage regardless of your situation and people are dying every day because they don't have it.

Im not sure what is going to have to happen to get our country to wake up.

Lisa
_________________________
Speak kindly, Live simply, Care deeply, Love generously, and BLAH, HA, HA, LOUDLY! every chance you get.


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#360635 - 11/02/09 03:56 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Angelmom]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Quote:

Insurance gets to approve or deny procedures every day that they deem experimental or too costly.





The government will do the exact same thing. Additionally, now with the proposed cuts to Medicare to help finance this whopper of a bill, the government is basically seeking to marginalize the individuals that are non-contributors to their revenues. Face it. It comes down to revenue and expenditures. If you don't help finance the government (aren't a producer), regardless that you were basically helped to finance their operations for 25, 30, or more years, they really don't give much of a hoot about you. I believe the president even laid this concept out himself where he said it would be just fine if that person existed on pain pills instead of having a knee or hip replacement (I don't recall which) and enjoying a greater quality of life. Perhaps the insurance companies do this more often that I realize too, but I've never heard my parents or elderly relatives (on Medicare Advantage) have any problem getting the procedures they needed. Maybe all of that was in the cards all along for Medicare recipients, but now their intentions have been made apparent. There has to be a better way.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360636 - 11/03/09 12:03 AM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Dow]
Maggie Offline
SENSational_AS_Kicker

Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Ontario, Canada
What is wrong with capitalism
- except -
for areas where social programs are needed. i.e. education, healthcare,.....
These items should not be in the least bit optional. They are very basic. There should be no questioning if someone deserves them or can afford them.
_________________________

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#360637 - 11/03/09 07:05 AM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Maggie]
Inanna Offline
Very_Addicted_to_AS_Kickin

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 18107
Loc: UK
We had a lovely illustration of why capitalism in healthcare is wrong here just this past week. The provincial government was giving out the H1N1 vaccine to various doctors' offices and clinics. One clinic was a privately owned clinic. They do get coverage from OHIP, but they also have extra services that you pay for. So, here are people standing in line for upwards of 7 hours at the public clinics, and these jokers are selling the vaccine. OK, not the actual vaccine. What they were actually saying was: come to our private clinic and buy a $2,300 full health screen and we'll give you the vaccine for free!!

I was so disgusted. Honestly, I almost spewed all over the TV. They have now been shamed into not insisting that people buy services from them to get the vaccine.

Warm hugs,
_________________________
Kat

A life lived in fear is a life half lived.
"Strictly Ballroom"


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#360638 - 11/03/09 08:27 AM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Inanna]
moosekick Offline
Warrior_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 484
Capitalism is a good thing. We up here in Canada have it too! It works well with the right amount of restrictions. The confusion is the difference between Capitalism and Corporatism. Capitalism is not the belief in the way a country is run. Capitalism is a cog in the wheel. Corporatism is when the companies exceed and/or influence the powers of politics. Canada is a good example where capitalism works well in a Social Democratic.

This brings me back to my first point: I pay 22% of my income in taxes. I have free health care. Americans pay upwards of 50% of their income in taxes. I believe this whole view of "free enterprise capitalism" is a fairy tale built to keep people believing in their "free" country. If it was so free, there would be no taxes! So all this uproar about healthcare and no question as to where all the tax dollars are going in the first place! We can start any business we want here, and we can be privy to many legal exemptions when doing so to help us along the way. Defining "free" is highly relative to what people were raised to believe.


Edited by moosekick (11/03/09 08:35 AM)

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#360639 - 11/03/09 12:38 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Inanna]
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 3233
Loc: Valley Cottage, NY
Hi Kat:

I sure wish public shaming worked down here!

Here's a horrible recent story that will definitely raise your temperature, a recent report about a woman who was drug-raped, and being unconscious, didn't know if her assailant used any protection. She was advised by her doctor to begin anti-HIV medications as a preventative measure, and then was DROPPED from her health care insurance plan because of it!!!

Being a woman is not a pre-existing condition
_________________________
Dow

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#360640 - 11/03/09 01:11 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: moosekick]
Dow Offline
Imperial_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 3233
Loc: Valley Cottage, NY
Quote:

Capitalism is a good thing. We up here in Canada have it too! It works well with the right amount of restrictions.



I totally agree with that. Capitalism WITH restrictions is the way to go. Problem here is that the restrictions are too little, and not enforced enough. And the longer that continues, the more power the private industry gets, and they use that power and wealth to influence what happens, buy television and radio time, not just to run their ads, but to actually manipulate the actual so-called "news" programming, and to threaten those stations if they don't like a way the "facts" are presented...

Quote:

The confusion is the difference between Capitalism and Corporatism. Capitalism is not the belief in the way a country is run. Capitalism is a cog in the wheel. Corporatism is when the companies exceed and/or influence the powers of politics. Canada is a good example where capitalism works well in a Social Democratic.




Of course Corporatism in it's extreme form is Fascism... a term that has been thrown about in this country a lot lately, misused as a perjorative attack against health care reform, which makes no sense, if anything it's the opposite

Quote:

This brings me back to my first point: I pay 22% of my income in taxes. I have free health care. Americans pay upwards of 50% of their income in taxes. I believe this whole view of "free enterprise capitalism" is a fairy tale built to keep people believing in their "free" country. If it was so free, there would be no taxes! So all this uproar about healthcare and no question as to where all the tax dollars are going in the first place! We can start any business we want here, and we can be privy to many legal exemptions when doing so to help us along the way. Defining "free" is highly relative to what people were raised to believe.




Well you don't actually have "free" health care, if you are paying taxes, but I see your point. (the way that your government spends that money)

Not sure by the way where you are getting the numbers for Americans paying upwards of 50% of their income in taxes. The federal tax here ends at 35%, & then there is state tax on top of that, there may be a few states/cities that charge 15% or more, will have to research that

Here in New York state, in our household we pay a combined joint fed/state 31% of our income in taxes, less than others pay, because we are nowhere close to hitting that $372,950 number, where the fed taxes alone go to 35%

Our US taxes are still far lower than countries like the UK, which is one of the reasons that many wealthy rock stars like Elton John, Keith Richards have relocated to this country


Edited by Dow (11/03/09 07:21 PM)
_________________________
Dow

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#360641 - 11/03/09 03:29 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: moosekick]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
This post seems to acquiring an “America bashing” tone and I'm not sure why. I still struggle to understand why the Canadians are so interested in what happens in regard to health insurance reform in the United States. You have your universal health insurance system, you seem to like it, and that is just fine. Enough said. Apparently, at the moment at least, we don't think such a system is necessarily the solution of choice for the United States.

I don't disagree with your statement that “capitalism is not the belief in the way a country is run”. Capitalism is akin to a free market. However, once you introduce any restrictions or regulation, you really don't have a free market. You have quasi-capitalism. I had to do some digging to refresh my knowledge I might of once possessed regarding corporatism. This quote has led me to believe that this is similar to what the current administration in the United States is pursuing.

Quote:

Thus corporatism was formulated as a system that emphasized the positive role of the state in guaranteeing social justice and suppressing the moral and social chaos of the population pursuing their own individual self-interests.




Corporatism

Also, Canada may be a good example of where capitalism works well in a Social Democratic, but we (the United States) have a Republic. It works fairly well here too. Just because we don't have universal health insurance is not indicative of whether capitalism works well or not. I think a large part of the problem here is pure greed (capitalist greed if you will) and lack of morals, conscience, etc. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with the concept of capitalism.

Have to agree with Dow on this one. If you pay taxes, your health care is not free. You are paying for it. The government (I imagine) just allocates/distributes the funds to cover the bill. Also, I don't think I ever paid anywhere close to 50% of my income in federal taxes. I'm assuming that the 22% does not include any provincial or local taxes. I typically fell in the 25% - 28% percent bracket regarding federal taxes. Of course, there were state taxes and local taxes, but I think my total tax burden was still less than 35%. Also, it is easy to take potshots at how our taxes are allocated, but you are comparing apples and oranges when comparing the financial burdens/obligations of both the United States and Canada.

Americans, at least the ones that are paying attention, do routinely question where our tax dollars are going. Why do you think there was such a ruckus this summer regarding this proposed health insurance reform and it is still a very “hot” topic. Part of the issue has to do with individuals having to undergo radical changes to their current health insurance and benefits, but another huge issue is how this proposal will be financed.

Also, the notion of free has to do more with the freedoms guaranteed to citizens via the Bill of Rights. Associating freedom with free market is a bit of a misnomer. Freedom is freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom to peaceably assemble, etc., although one could easily make a case that these no longer exist as intentioned.

Yes, defining free is very relative to what people were raised, or conditioned by the state, to believe.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360642 - 11/03/09 03:44 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Dow]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Quote:

Problem here is that the restrictions are too little, and not enforced enough.




Mmmmm...this, in my opinion is partially true. We may have too many restrictions in some instances. It oft seems that the problem is that the existing laws/rules are not enforced. Therefore, the geniuses in D.C. take it upon themselves to enact new legislation. They also seem to do a great job of loading things up with pork, attaching completely unrelated legislation, or stripping citizens of more of their rights when they create new legislation.

Quote:

the more power the private industry gets, and they use that power and wealth to influence what happens, buy television and radio time, not just to run their ads, but to actually manipulate the actual so-called "news" programming, and to threaten those stations if they don't like a way the "facts" are presented...




I guess we see different solutions to this problem. However, I agree that a problem exists. It occurs to me that the solution is not to rely on Big Brother to regulate, it is to empower individuals to think critically and tune this garbage out. However, our public education system that churns out mindless automatons precludes critical thinking. Perhaps the garbage to which you refer will go away all together some day (we can dream, can't we?). I for one don't want to live in more of a nanny state than we already have. However, there is a disturbingly large portion of the population that wants the government to basically care for them cradle to grave.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

Top
#360643 - 11/03/09 04:39 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Jaybird]
moosekick Offline
Warrior_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 484
Quote:

This post seems to acquiring an “America bashing” tone and I'm not sure why. I still struggle to understand why the Canadians are so interested in what happens in regard to health insurance reform in the United States.




I'm sorry to have it come across this way. Not my intention. Not to downplay our own country, but on a macro level, we are like the fly on the back of your head. It matters greatly how you move to us and many times you wouldn't even know we're here. On a micro level, I also have relatives in the States so it does affect me. I did post that I sincerely hope you guys work it out the best way possible in a previous post.

Also, I did not say anywhere that capitalism does not work well in the States. I actually thought about putting it in afterwards that It runs amazingly in your own country as well! The freedom thing, people see this as a government take-over and are coorelating it to a loss of their freedom. I was saying that maybe to question the tax dollars and not the reform itself originally.


How your taxes are divied up were only stated as "IMO"s which are "in my opinion" where I said that I think that everyone should have their health taken care of because they do belong to a "group" of people and do participate in the things that the group does (sometimes whether they like it or not). Just an IMO.

22% includes EI, CPP, and Income tax on a Provincial and Federal Level.

The ROW (rest of world) regards Canadians as Americans far more than you would believe. I've seen it time and time again in my travels (I've been Corrected when I said no I'm not American, I'm Canadian, and then they said "its the same thing") so I try to stay abreast of what's going on (and think every Canadian should).

Basically I was just trying to open thought on another perspective. There are great fears in the States about this reform and many Americans would believe that our system is opressive and could never be the (or an) answer. I believe that I am free to do whatever I want (morally and legally of course) in the country that I live and just trying to eliminate some fears of the unknown.
_________________________
Hey, somebody stole my quote! - Me

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