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#360644 - 11/03/09 06:26 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Jaybird]
Timo Offline


Registered: 07/16/01
Posts: 3160
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

Enough said. Apparently, at the moment at least, we don't think such a system is necessarily the solution of choice for the United States.




I'm curious, who is "we"? What's all the hubub about the public option and single payer? You're moving towards it, of that there's no doubt.



Quote:

If you pay taxes, your health care is not free. You are paying for it.




I think the word "free" is misused here. The proper term should be "included".

What the US does in the future regarding health care will affect us in Canada because comparisons will be drawn to failed policies and policies that have worked (on both sides). Our politicians will surely be in a tizzy no matter what your health system ends up looking like.
_________________________
Timo

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#360645 - 11/03/09 07:16 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Jaybird]
mig Offline


Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 12307
Loc: ON, Canada
Hi Jay,

I have really been enjoying this thread! Fascinating. I've wanted to jump in many times but wow, now it's so big.

I really don't think there is any American bashing sentiment here, and although I can't speak for others, I think that what you may be sensing is that for the vast majority of Canadians, 'we' are just very proud of our healthcare system... and the basic underlying sentiment (I believe)... is that we *wish* it for you! We don't wish you any additional burden of debt however.

As much as we are proud of our system, it is also far from perfect and struggling to manage the rising costs of healthcare as well. I think this is a big challenge for every country. Part of our interest in the debate (that is not ours ) probably lies in the fact that we pay great attention to what our neighbours are doing, and naturally more so than vice versa, as whatever is eventually decided certainly has some potential to impact us and our political leaders and decisions. Our nations are tied at the hip in many ways.

I think Adam, you may have misconstrued a few facts? From what I understand, our overall tax burden is generally higher than most Americans and this is essentially to do with the taxes we pay towards healthcare coverage. It always cracks me up when we say it is free because it absolutely isn't. There are varying tax brackets in Canada and combined Federal, Provincial and Municipal taxes can be as much as 45% of total income for 'some'. Not me. I do not know what our highest is actually. I would think the average is around 30% but I'm not sure on that figure either.

We are not actually a Social Democracy. We are a Federal Parliamentary Democracy (within a Constitutional Monarchy)! And capitalists too. We have a few more social programs, most notably universal healthcare but we are not socialists! We do have a Social Democratic Party, which I don't think(?) has ever held power federally. (whew) They are somewhat useful in Opposition tho.

Some key regulations, preferably less than more imho, do seem prudent and necessary. The banking system is a recent prime example that literally saved our banks from collapse.

Cripes I've gotten myself way off topic. It seems to me (not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans) that Americans are facing a unique opportunity and challenge. I imagine that if you indeed want change (which seemed the case by your last election anyway) that you could probably figure out a way to do it that would not automatically increase your deficit but it would have to be a cleverly designed and multifaceted approach to reform. There are huge efficiencies to be gained from large groups for sure but the sheer size of your population and the complexity of it really makes it difficult. It is in so many ways like comparing apples and oranges for us.

I still wish it for you though! The benefits I mean. Some of the stories are just heart-wrenching and unfathomable to me.

mig

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#360646 - 11/03/09 08:40 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: mig]
moosekick Offline
Warrior_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 484
Well,my politics class in Uni, gave us the "social democratic" label. I guess it doesn't matter who labels what anyway.

As I remember our tax levels are similar in amounts but are made up of different "labels".

I do need to retract one comment about the "being free" thing though as I don't really think either of our countries are "free"
_________________________
Hey, somebody stole my quote! - Me

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#360647 - 11/03/09 09:01 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Timo]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Quote:

I'm curious, who is "we"? What's all the hubub about the public option and single payer? You're moving towards it, of that there's no doubt.




"We" would be the citizens of the United States. It is a certain subset of the population, but obviously not everyone is convinced of a single tier, universal solution at this point in time or perhaps any time in the future. Now, if we thought that the same system was such a fantastic idea, I don't think that the pols would have taken the beating that they did from their constituents this summer. Honestly, if the Dems intentions about enacting health insurance reform was genuine, they wouldn't have taken the approach that they did. They should have collectively read a few "how-to" books on sales. You don't try and ram something as important as this down people's throats and expect them to blindly accept it. Perhaps they are that myopic. I don't know.

There, in my eyes, and in the eyes of some others, are many problems with the public option. The government really has no business running health care for one thing. Another is that over time it will likely lead to less competition and eventually no choice for the citizens. The government will not play fair and will drive the competition out of business. Personally, I can forsee the quality of health care declining as the government creates greater interference as to what doctors can and cannot do. Not all doctors are going to want to take the MO from the U.S. government regarding how they administer care. I'm not knocking the Canadian system or the health care system of any country for that matter. Personally, I just don't think such a system is one that is satisfactory for a portion of the population. Also, it is not my intention to talk about health care systems. Health insurance is what's on the table. At least that should be the only thing that's at stake.

Single payer? Perhaps. I could forsee such a situation if the government makes it cheaper for companies to dump their employees off on a public system (pay a tax instead of paying for coverage). However, I think it is far from a sure thing.

I guess I'd attribute all the hubub to differences inherent to our respective countries. Not every citizen in the U.S. is willing to yield to what the government attempts to mandate. I don't think that the vast majority of the citizens of the United States wish any of our citizens to be without health insurance, however this country is quickly on it's way to becoming a third world country and cannot afford another entitlement program at this juncture especially when there are so many that don't contribute to pay the tab.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360648 - 11/03/09 09:07 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Jaybird]
drizzit Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1444
Loc: Montana
Jay remember in poll after poll the majority of americans favor a public option. Your opinion does note represent the majority view in this country in any way

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2009/10/21/cnn-poll-61-favor-public-option/

Personally due to the anti-trust laws and how the insurance companies operate now the idea the idea that there is any choice now is a bit off. In fact the vast majority of americans really can't afford any choice but what the job offers anyway.

Choice simply does not exist now except for the well employed, young, healthy people in the US

If we don't fix it somehow we will be a third world country as medicare and rising premiums break the bank of the government and individuals.

Last I saw from the CBO, the senate plan would actually save us money, 30 billion over 10 years on the federal defecit compared to doing nothing.


Edited by drizzit (11/03/09 09:15 PM)

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#360649 - 11/03/09 09:13 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Timo]
snowshoe Offline
Gold_AS_Kicker

Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 1502
Loc: Lost
Quote:

I'm curious, who is "we"?



I'm curious who we is as well given there's a wide range of opinions. But at the risk of making yet another sweeping statement, I feel confident in speaking for all U.S. citizens in saying we adore our Canadian neighbors to the north!
_________________________

This bunny Kicks AS !

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#360650 - 11/03/09 09:24 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: mig]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
I don't blame you for being proud of your health care system. If it works for you that is fantastic. I know very little about it. I just don't see the Canadian, or any other country's system, as a cut and paste solution for our country. It doesn't matter if we are talking about Canada, the U.K. Singapore, etc. Each country is unique, has it's own cultures, beliefs, nuances, etc. There is nothing wrong (outside of that pesky debt) with universal health insurance. I really think very few citizens of the United States wish for the citizens of this country to be without health insurance or access to health care. Denial of care, no matter your situation is just wrong. Unfortunately it is not that simple and there are numerous shades of gray involved. Oh and about that debt...it would have been much more productive and humane to spend the money (although we really didn't have it to spend in the first place) on the betterment of U.S. citizens instead of a couple of endless wars, but that's topic creep.

Yes, this is a unique opportunity. It, in my opinion, was a blown opportunity. Instead of taking the high road for the betterment of the country, the folks in Washington chose to play politics forgetting that they are mere servants of the people.

Also, I constantly laugh at this "change" thing. Things were going to change no matter who was elected. W was done (unless he wielded power to become a dictator...or more of one than he was). I see little change. We are still headed in the same direction we were with the last regime. Down.

Finally, if your opinion is a hill of beans, I might be one little sprout. However, I'm one of the orneriest sprouts around.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360651 - 11/03/09 09:40 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: drizzit]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Perhaps legislation was passed of which I'm not aware? If "we" (referring the citizens of the United States - 100%) are so convinced of one system, why is there still strong opposition? I didn't realize that our country reached a decision on a plan for health insurance reform. I really don't mean to be so flippant with my response, but this issue appears, at least as I understand it, to be far from resolved.

61% may be a majority, but 39% is approximately 120 million citizens. Hard to ignore that figure.

I haven't been out to the CBO page since early September. I'll have to take a look out there soon.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360652 - 11/03/09 09:51 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: snowshoe]
Jaybird Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 1461
Loc: The Matrix
Hi.

Quote:

Apparently, at the moment at least, we don't think such a system is necessarily the solution of choice for the United States.





The "we" was meant to represent the idea that there are varying/differing opinions and that their is no clear consensus yet regarding the final plan for health insurance reform. If any one existing system were so ideal for our country, I don't think we'd still be fighting about the issue. I didn't realize this "we" would stir up so much dust. It was meant to suggest that the country is still undecided.
_________________________
Kind Regards,
Jay

Almost all of us long for peace and freedom; but very few of us have much enthusiasm for the thoughts, feelings, and actions that make for peace and freedom. - Aldous Huxley

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. - Thomas Jefferson

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#360653 - 11/03/09 10:00 PM Re: What to do about healthcare? Can it be fixed? [Re: Jaybird]
drizzit Offline
Silver_AS_Kicker

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 1444
Loc: Montana
There is strong opposition because the US is a very very divided country. Almost to the point of being ungovernable in my opinion. The extreme position, with no compromise possible, on both sides will destroy what they are trying to save in the long.

there is no decision on a plan but there is a strong majority on a general direction. 61% in a presidential election is considered a landslide victory in this country.

The last few years large minorities have been ignored by both sides in all kinds of issues. Healthcare will be no different in the long one. There will be a large chunk of very disappointed people on the losing side. That is what this country has become with all the polarizing radio and politically personallities lately. it is quite sad.

BTW you will notice I said a public option is favored not a specific plan that you tried to pin to the post. I never referred to any specific plan nor did the poll in any way.
_________________________
No families take so little medicine as those of doctors, except those of apothecaries.

Oliver Wendell Holmes

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