I started no-starch in August with good effect. Taking some mg omega 3 in combination with this diet works good for me. However, I have recently found out that I do not (I think) get affected by rice. I have eaten sushi rice sometimes (even in the beginning of this diet), and the other day I ate rice porridge and sushi the same day with no pain.

The only thing I know for sure I react to is grains. I get back ache and swollen tendons the next day, when I for example eat bread.

Have any of you tested if you can tolerate various foods while on this diet?

I suspect it might not be the Klebsiella, but proteins and lectins in various foods, disturbing the gut lining, and leaking into the blood stream.

I've read several places that rice has been eaten by humans for a longer timespan, and that it's less problematic than the "young" grains.

I've been testing but I end up eating so many different things it is hard to tell what is effecting me. I went out to dinner last week and ate a potato with a steak. It didn't seem to effect me at all. If I eat a lot of chocolate I react fairly quickly but then its over quickly. If I eat anything breaded I react a few days later and then it lasts a few days. I haven't tried rice yet.

One thing I notice is I feel really blah on low carbs and if I eat something carb-loaded, I feel really awesome for about 12 hours to a day. Then the reaction sets in and I start hurting. Its like a drug, I get a high from it and pay for it later.

Rice does not affect me too much, that is, I can eat a little, but...has to be Basmati rice! Grains are difficult, they really do cause aggravation - though can eat the occasional slice of brown bread but white bread is definitely out.

AS is a right weird condition.

Hi, Hanna:

At this stage of my healing (14 years into NSD+antibiotics), no starches affect me anymore. The first I tested was rice and the reason it does not affect us is that it is a natural starch insoluble in its natural state, but I believe rice flour would be as deadly as wheat flour; it has been for me.

The FORM is important, consider the grain size and starches that have been processed or turned into flour present a much greater biovolume growth medium--a colloidal suspension that can cover many square meters versus individual units. That said, one of the worst flares I ever experienced was after eating fried rice, so combinations are important also, as well as perhaps the type of preparation.

There are so many variables that we are kept guessing, but I do know that AS is caused by Klebsiella--the antibiotics that did not work against this germ also had no activity against my AS symptoms.

BE CAREFUL--it is a matter of probabilities. We can get away with once, twice, three even more times eating these foods but all of a sudden we will be back in the club--but then we will know why and how to get back out again.

HEALTH,
John

Yes, I do also think it is the form - the molecular form - that counts. I think Klebsiella might play a role in the gut, but I think proteins leaking into the blood stream might be even more important. Or some kind of food intolerance like this study suggests http://www.arthritistoday.org/conditions/rheumatoid-arthritis/nutrition-and-ra/ra-food-allergies.php Here they recommend the paleo / stone age diet, which excludes "new foods" such as grains, milk etc.

i have a simmilar opinion towards the role proteins (including the ones our gut bacteria release and may pass into our blood) play into autoimmune diseases. it does not seem necesary for me for bacteria to pass into our blood/system from our gut in order to trigger a flare. it's enough their enzymes/proteins do.


unfortunately i cannot handle rice too much starch does play a role into my disease.

also i do find raw foods (mostly roots, even a bit starchy) to go well with my gut&joints, much better than other so called legal no starch foods. the paleo principle - our foods evolved during the last 40.000 years but our guts do not - has a point.

I am reading a book called Dangerous Grains by James Braly,M.D.,and Ron Hoggan, M.A. this may help you with your research.

Hanna - Great link. Most interesting. Will save and go back to it.


Joannanas - looked up that book, which led to several more titles. Looks to be worth following em all up.

Thanks guys - good ones.

>> If I eat a lot of chocolate I react fairly quickly but then its over quickly. If I
>> eat anything breaded I react a few days later and then it lasts a few days

Very observant !!!
Yeah I have similar reactions but on a different time scale. Wheat causes pain in a few hours for me, but the peak pain is 24 hours later. Simpler starches such as in bananas will cause pain in a few hours but peak at maybe 6 or 8 hours later, and be over quickly too.

Rice -
yeah I used to eat that when I started the Low Starch Diet. Rice was quite well tolerated, but I gave it up in order to further the reduction in pain, yeast infections, iritis, allergies, etc.

z

During this recent costo and rib pain flare I could not face food - the thought made me heave. So, went on the apple diet. Bingo. Flare has disappeared! Last Tuesday could not even sit comfortably let alone lie down without the horrible chest pains and now? No probs. And, had a fantastic night last night, really slept, deep and long. This AS is right weird...

That's good news, Molly!

If only we could live a long and happy life as Breatharians.....

So long as I can dilute it with my evening bourbon!! <LOL>

Hello there,

If you are not very sensitive... brown rice and especially basmati rice is more easily digested than other starches. Therefore may be able to tolerate this.

Again... would think gut would have to have more healthy gut to be able to eat.

Tim

Good ol' LaMonty used to tell me that the short grain rice (japanese rice I think) has more of an interesting kind of starch that may be safer - amylopectin I believe. Was a few years back so I am a bit vague on the details (or plain wrong (; )

Been a while since I've seen LaMonty on the forums. Hope he is well !!

z

Here it is! Yep short grain sticky rice is likely to be safest for us as it has a simpler starch (amylopectin) with almost no amylose (standard ol' starch). Long grain bismati may well be the worst for us as it has the most amylose starch.

Now to test the hypothesis

Glutinous rice contains a maximum of 1% amylose starch !
But lots of amylopectin - so your mileage may vary depending on your gut flora I suppose.

Zark - Facinating. So my fave Basmati is a no-no? Humph! Dang! Mind you, hardly ever do eat rice anyways, but will give this short grain a try - my local supermarket stocks it. Like it occasionally with plain yogurt and hot pickles - South Indian style. (Shades of my many years living in India).

Thanks Zark - most useful input.

Well, all I know right now is that LaMonty seemed to think short grain/sticky rice was safer due to amylopectin. Also the webpages I read talked about short grain varieties being digested and broken down more quickly by our digestive system.

In Amylose..
"Because of its tightly packed structure, amylose is more resistant to digestion than other starch molecules and is therefore an important form of resistant starch, which has been found to be an effective prebiotic."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylose


In Amylopectin..
is structured in a way "resulting in a soluble molecule that can be quickly degraded as it has many end points for enzymes to attach onto. In contrast, amylose contains very few &#945;(1&#8594;6) bonds, which causes it to be hydrolyzed more slowly but have higher density and be insoluble."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylopectin

Interesting. I have been eating sticky sushi rice and basmati rice.

I started NSD in August, my pain-symptoms disappeared. Then I tried to eat bread, just to test - and the symptoms came back. Now they have disappeared and I have tried rice (sticky sushi rice and basmati), as well as a little potato and banana. Nothing has happened. This may be because I ate too little, or because grains are one of my problem-foods. I've only had joint/back pain for 1.5 years, maybe that's why it works quickly.

Has anyone tried anything similar to the Seignalet diet( http://paleozonenutrition.wordpress.com/...disease-trials/) ?

@hanna.

are you diagnosed with AS?

No, but my doctor referred me to a rheumatologist this month because of suspected AS (I have not been to the rheumatologist yet). I have suspected AS myself since June this year. I am HLA-b27 positive, and my grandfather had AS (Which I found out this year - he died before I was born).

I had classic symptoms in my right sacroiliac joint, under my feet, hand and jaw for around a year until I changed my diet in August.

Hey guys, this is weird - I tested a grain of glutinous rice and it didn't turn inky blue / black. What the .. it just took on the nice brown / amber colour of the iodine. In disbelief I then cooked some glutinous rice in water with my microwave. The water was milky, yet the water didn't react to iodine (I guarantee that the milky water from normal rice cooking will react). I tested the now soft cooked grains.. again no reaction to iodine!

This is indicative that iodine may react specifically to amylose.. and not always to other similar compounds such as amylopectin.

After leaving it a bit longer I find there is now a darker brown colour that might be some weird half reaction. Quite different to the classic inky blue/black starch reaction.

I cooked up and ate a good serving of glutinous rice - good to eat and...no reactions! Was soooo good, that I did the same again. No reactions. Delighted. Won't go overboard on it, but great to know that can eat rice again.

Thanks guys, great thread. <(:))

Very interesting reading this...mind you though I like rice..it lands like a brick and takes forever to go through the digestive track for me...just like bread. );

could the difference be gluten? bread has it, while rice, potato and banana don't.

have you been tested for gluten intolerance / celiac? it can cause arthritis-like symptoms as well.

how do you respond to other glutenous and gluten-free starches?

Good point Sue, well spotted

I see you are using the Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) protocol. I only just heard about it a few weeks back, and saw one or two people mention it working for their AS. How goes it with you? What dosage are you using?

If anyone wanted to try glutinous rice but has been on a strict no starch diet, then you would definitely need to start small with this. Maybe a teeny tiny bit. Then the next meal perhaps a quarter teaspoon.. and gradually increase.

The amylopectin is a prebiotic so it will feed the bugs in your gut. Eat too much and your body will not be able to cope with the sudden change in flora in your gut.

Zark - where ya been ? Bridget B (barngoddess) started the LDN protocol. She posted on it some 5 odd yrs ago? Then I took it up and it spread from there. Amazing med. Calms down the spinal inflammation and helps with gut problems.

UC David have been/are (still?) running a trial for treating Crohn's using LDN - works well for Chron's (and claims for many other diseases.

lowdosenaltrexone.org has a raft of information as indeed there is a raft of information here on KA - put in a search. I post up the LDN Newsletters as they are published from the UK. One starts real low, low. Like 1.75mg, then moves up to 2.75, then to 4.25 or 4.75. IF necessary can move to 6mg. Nearly everyone stays on the 4.25 or 4.75mg. I'm on 6mg and have been for a couple of yrs now. LDN works well for me. Hardly ever have to take additional meds. Do have an antiinflammatory and pain meds for breakthrough, but in the last three odd yrs have hardly touched. Once for knees - nasty knees. Couple of times for back - when had run out of LDN or been visiting and forgotten my med! Another time for costo flare (nasty one that). But basically hardly touch other meds.

Don't mean it will work for everyone but my findings are, yes. Good stuff. Oh yes, no side effects - apart from transitory dreams, though for me am still waiting...

Hope this helps.

some of this molly just stated too, but i'll add my experiences.

i started at 1.5 mg, but ramped to 3.0 mg, then 4.5 mg within a month. then stayed at 4.5 mg for over two years now.

for me, its effects are more subtle, but have become obvious. i still flare, still get inflammation. but its like my body is able to get rid of the inflammation a lot faster. and i'm sure its the LDN because i always make sure to start things separately so i can identify what is giving me either good effects or bad side effects.

things heal now ridiculously fast in comparison to before the LDN, maybe more like a normal person (based on how PT insisted i should have been healing in the past and now i do!) what i mean by "healing". i used to get nasty tendonitis, used to pull or even tear tendons and ligaments all the time and they'd take forever to recover. now what used to take months to years, takes weeks, and what used to take a few months, takes only a few days to recover.

and I HAVE NOT TORN A TENDON OR LIGAMENT IN TWO YEARS, SINCE I STARTED TAKING LDN! that is big news for me. YAY!

so i still need to find a drug to prevent the inflammation / prevent the flares.

but once the inflammation is there, the LDN allows my body to heal itself quite speedily as described above. or to get rid of the inflammation fast as well; like if i'm on my feet too much, still my feet become inflamed, sometimes to the point of barely being able to walk. but now they recover within a few days instead of it taking weeks to months.

and thus far, no side effects that i've been aware of

Yes I think gluten is my problem, but I am not coeliac. I have not tested for sensitivity, because I do not want to eat gluten again. The tests are also unreliable I've heard. And I've read that whenever you eat gluten, the antibodies (that I suspect attack my tendons and joints) stay in the bloodstream for up to 6 months.

Some articles states that as much as 80% (of the US population) does not tolarate gluten, but it is difficult to trace symptoms to gluten because they come so slowly (unless you have coeliac).

I still eat a low-starch / low-carb paleo diet, but since the last time I was here, I have eaten glutenfree bread, potato etc with no reaction. I am planning to exclude dairy products as well.

Some references:
http://chriskresser.com/the-gluten-thyroid-connection

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082016

http://www.glutenfreesociety.org/gluten-...uten-free-diet/

And this book: http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Grains-Gluten-Cereal-Hazardous/dp/1583331298

i tested negative for gluten / celiac in the following ways:

1. duodenum biopsy when they were scoping me for my gastritis

2. food sensitivity blood work testing (tested very positive for casein and mildly positive for egg (probably protein as well i'm guessing).

3. HLA genes

4. antibodies

and i don't seem to have any (at least really obvious) affects to gluten.

however, with all of that said, (some of) my doctors say you can test negative and still have a sensitivity.

but i was also told by my gastroenterologist that the combination of the antibodies and HLA genes he tested for have been shown to give a 99% accuracy rate.

so if you really wanted to be tested properly, you could find a good doctor, up on the latest research, and have the proper testing done.

however, i'm always of the mind that real life data is the most important thing. if something bothers me, i don't worry about why, whether it should, etc, i just know it does, and avoid it.

a food - symptom diary told me the things that bothered my stomach. the worst was dairy. i always thought it was the calcium causing the stomach to produce more acid. now i think it must have been the casein causing the inflammation.

Thanks Molly & Sue, I am quite curious about LDN

>> Zark - where ya been ?

I don't know why I haven't been on kickas more. Busy working I suppose!. Have stayed on the diet as a matter of necessity for years now. But there is always more to learn

Am I in remission???

I started with half a spoon full of glutinous rice (black sticky rice desert with coconut cream on top at a thai restaurant). No reaction. I tried several spoonfuls a few days later, still no reaction. I had a whole bowl full yesterday, still nothing.

Right now I am wondering whether I am in remission, or if the glutinous rice could really be this safe..?
It is likely I am in remission as I have been eating out a lot with friends and haven't had a bad reaction for about a month. Eating out is usually a game of russian roulette for me (even though I try to be careful).

Time to visit starch-ville and give it a real test.

If I am in remission then perhaps the following changes may have caused it:

* started taking "soil based organisms" (Swanson brand) - a variant of probiotics. I mix it in with yoghurt, honey, half or quarter tsp of inulin, 2 tsp of fiber supplement (XFG : xylo oligosaccharides, fructo oligosaccharides, galacto oligosaccharides)

* started Tai Chi lessons

* cut out red meat - may have a sensitivity?

Cutting out the red meat will have helped that's for certain. And then all the rest of what you are doing helps matters along. Good news - Go well

When I first went gluten free I was joint pain free for about a year, but it gradually came back, and now I need to do minimal starch. Carol Sinclair reports the same experience in her book, I believe she was okay for 2 years after going gluten free.

I am convinced that gluten has a role in some cases of AS, maybe gut damage contributes to the problem, or maybe gluten intolerance increases inflammation and so worsens symptoms, or maybe something else. I thought I was cured when I went off gluten, I was devastated when all my symptoms began to recur.

The thing I always try to keep in mind is that this disease is effectively like an living organism, since it is the Klebs causing the problem. I ate starch every now and then for a while and thought I was fine with that, but after a while my symptoms began to increase and then I had to endure a few weeks of being back to the awful deep bone aches while I starved the Klebs back down. Not fun.

Also, as others have mentioned, there is the issue of how well the starch is digested. Maybe you digest rice well, so undigested starch isn't making it to your gut in as large an amount as when you eat wheat, for example.

In my case I react very clearly to starch. I have not been diagnosed, in fact I tried a low carb paleo diet and went into remission, after experimenting I found starch was the culprit, and when I posted asking how on earth starch could be the cause of my joint pain, someone told me about AS and suddenly my life story made sense!

I am interested about taking OS, as I thought that was to be avoided? It is very hard to find probiotics without FOS.

>> Maybe you digest rice well

Perhaps, perhaps

I normally react to starchy bananas & rice even though they are an easier to digest starch from my experience - evidence from the fact that the reaction is smaller /doesn't last as long.

Had 2 starchy unripe bananas and no reaction. So yeah I seem to be in remission. At least somewhat.

I tried an indian curry sauce last night that appears to have been starchy - it was very tasty (I didn't test with iodine as it had tomato puree in the sauce and thus would have reacted regardless). Became pretty sore and stiff.. slipped into a "food coma" (very tired & fell asleep, not a real coma hehe). By morning the stiffness was gone and I felt fine!. Well, most starches would take me 3 or 4 days to recover properly from.

So yep, kinda in remission.

So you are in remission, with or without the starch diet ?

Hi sue22,

Have you had the blood test transglutaminase ?

See link below

transglutaminase test for celiac

Had another (half) bowl of black sticky rice pudding last night. Feeling fine today

I am wondering if these "Soil Based Organism" probiotics I am taking are making me less sensitive. I believe they are the most likely reason I am not reacting lately.

Hi Zark

Which probiotics have you been using? The only one I have taken successfully is Natren's Trinity. I live in Sydney so I am presuming I can get the same brand.

Also, which iodine do you use? I PMed Louise (Inky Fingers) and she uses Gold Cross. My last bottle didn't detect starch when I added it as an experiment...a bit worrying.

An ideas of a reliable iodine or maybe it was just that one bottle.

Cheers

Keith

PS Sorry to hijack the thread. Oh how I wish I could eat rice!

I have also been taking probiotics the last few months. And enzymes with each meal, + olive leaf extract and omega 3. I haven't had any pain since April when I ate out on a restaurant (I found out they had bread crumbs by mistake in my salad).

I eat sushi with rice (except fried tempura and soy with wheat) all the time now.

Yesterday I ate lobscouse full of starch (potato, kale, carrots, leeks, onion, celery) and I feel great today.

The probiotics I take are called Bio-Life Bio-dophilus (http://www.helseogkost.no/nettbutikk/magen_og_tarmene/bio_life_bio_dophilus_kapsler_90_stk). In addition, I eat a yoghurt with added Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG.

The enzymes I use are "SuperZym" (Norwegian: http://www.vitalkost.no/shift/superzym/)

>> Which probiotics have you been using?

I bought "Soil based organisms" over the internet (probably ebay). I tried two brands in case one was a dud - I used the brands Swanson's and Primal Defence.

>> Also, which iodine do you use?

Ummm that would be betadine I think. Tincture of iodine. I once bought a clear iodine and that didn't work at all.

I just had a big bowl of white stick rice. yum yum. I will let you know if I react.

I cooked it with cinnamon, palm sugar, and plenty of salt. Made it nice and thick until it was a big pot of glue heheehe. I heated it up and then added more palm sugar and lots of cream.

Ahh well, I am not as sensitive as I once was so maybe my results are not the best to go by anyways.

hi zark. i looked into the 'soil based' probiotics a while back and just had another quick look then. from what i can see it is just the same species that you'd find in a regular multi-strain probiotic. the 'soil based' claims appear to be just a marketing ploy to try and differentiate the product. they should still be just as good as any other multi-strain probiotic. the swansons ultra even has saccharomyces bouliardii added which could make it even better as SB has had some positive results in IBD studies.

hehe yeah it is kinda similar to the multi-strain ones. And yeah maybe it is just marketing, not sure but it is a good point. Here in Australia when I had looked at the popular brands most of them only have one or two strains (I think this is improving though), and if you look hard you can find one with maybe five or so. Whereas the one I'm taking has about 12 to 15 strains, so I am pretty happy to use these 2 products for now as long as the price is OK.

My attitude is that we want to create an ecosystem in our guts, not a monoculture. It is also a bit of a shotgun approach - try a dozen things and if one works then great. Of course then you might have the smaller problem of working backwards to find out precisely which one of them worked.

Yeah was fine with it.. nothing very noticeable happened as a reaction. No significant change in stiffness. Oh, except it left a lot of gunk on the gumline. No wonder people get gum disease and tooth rot.

Continue to eat stick rice without issue. Anyone else want to join me in this little experiment???
Would love to know your results.

I am definitely not desensitised to starch yet - I have had two reactions recently. One was with macadamias, and the second was a couple of stray lentils that I hadn't noticed in a seafood meal at a restaurant. The macadamias were the big reaction - took about two weeks to recover from completely (pain for 3 or 4 days, but ulcers, dry mouth, skin problems like eczema & infection, weak digestion continued on for much longer hence the longish recovery specified).

Oh, and both black sticky rice, and white sticky rice have been no problem.
I wonder about sushi rice? It looks like a short-grain rice..maybe it is OK too?

Macadamias?? I have been eating them like popcorn (much to the chagrin to my husband due to their price!)

Macadamias have a bit of starch (a small percentage by weight, but a bit more than the trace amount in walnuts) and it may not be the sticky-rice type of starch that Zark seems to be ok with nowadays. Also since they are nuts some people will be allergic to them, maybe that comes into play as well.

Yes macadamias.
The reaction is pretty strong in me. I actually don't think it is the teeny amount of starch that is the issue. More likely to be some weird fermentation issue that I have that is peculiar to the type of fermentable fiber (or whatever) in macadamias. They make me fart more than baked beans ever would! So something unique to my body and my gut flora I suspect :-/

Hi there.
so i was wondering, is shushi rice ok??
Thanks,
BMAN

Hi BMAN, in general NO rice is OK on either the Low Starch or No Starch diet. SOME people find after a long time on the diet they are then able to reintroduce a small amount of starch like rice into their diet.

If you want to start the No Starch Diet and have any hope of succeeding on it then you will need to eliminate all grains of any kind incl rice

I believe the above posts may mislead newbies a bit. It even got my hopes up so I cooked and tested some sushi rice and the iodine went black as Hades so definitely full of starch and not safe.

Hope that helps.